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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sussex Students Union defames Dr Kathleen Stock **Title Edited by MNHQ**

77 replies

TheBiologicalWoman · 09/07/2018 21:59

I'm livid. It's all over Twitter.

www.sussexstudent.com/news/article/ussu/Statement-from-University-of-Sussex-Students-Union-Exec/

OP posts:
PeakPants · 13/07/2018 16:02

Well no, Kathleen has actually made clear on Twitter that she is pleased with the VC’s statement which is not entirely one-sided. She just wants support for being able to have the debate- she does not expect everyone to share her viewpoint.

R0wantrees · 13/07/2018 16:05

Vice Chancellor's comment:

(extract)
The academic in question has come under fire for articulating views, informed by her philosophical research and scholarship, on the laws and customs surrounding gender identity. Although she has stated that she is fully supportive of the rights of everyone to identify their own gender, she has also raised questions about where boundaries should be set and these have provoked strong feelings and, in some cases, accusations. It’s at this juncture I’ve felt uncomfortable about the implication that there may be something more sinister going on.

This situation is actually a telling example of how we can choose to call upon our values to inform how we act.

By celebrating inclusion, we must recognise the personal courage of the many individuals who come up against abuse or unacceptable behaviour - just because they are being themselves. I know it has been extremely difficult for many people in the transgender and non-binary community to hear the views held by our academic.

But for me, alongside this, we must also be kind to those people who are brave enough to share their own views – and respect the courage they have for doing so. Whether it is one of our academics or another member of staff, or one of our students, I feel very strongly that we must respect their right to free speech. I hold a deep-rooted concern about the future of our democratic society if we silence the views of people we don't agree with – even if our disagreements are vehemently opposed.

Please do not misunderstand me, I am certainly not saying these discussions are easy. I thought very hard about writing this message as I know that there will be some who disagree with what I am saying. But I wouldn’t feel that I was living up to my own ideals about integrity if I didn’t say something on this subject.

So, as our campus community looks ahead to see how we can live by our institutional values in the workplace, I would ask those with different views and understandings to please show kindness to each other. Nobody should be silenced and we must truly listen to the multitude of voices that speak out on matters. But rather than do so from different corners, we should come together and do this respectfully."

R0wantrees · 13/07/2018 16:05

Sorry X post loveyouradvice

MistressOfTheGarter · 13/07/2018 16:14

We don't threaten these people with murder and violence, do we?

I feel that this where things are going. It's a new age. The age of fascism of thought.

ChattyLion · 13/07/2018 17:04

The Vice Chancellor’s statement linked to above supports Dr Stock’s right to speak. It should have utterly condemned the arseholes who are abusing her - instead it just calls for ‘kindness’ Hmm but, it is at least gesturing to the right direction. It is disgraceful how she’s being treated.
Eg he says:

But for me, alongside this, we must also be kind to those people who are brave enough to share their own views – and respect the courage they have for doing so. Whether it is one of our academics or another member of staff, or one of our students, I feel very strongly that we must respect their right to free speech. I hold a deep-rooted concern about the future of our democratic society if we silence the views of people we don't agree with – even if our disagreements are vehemently opposed.

Please do not misunderstand me, I am certainly not saying these discussions are easy. I thought very hard about writing this message as I know that there will be some who disagree with what I am saying. But I wouldn’t feel that I was living up to my own ideals about integrity if I didn’t say something on this subject.

So, as our campus community looks ahead to see how we can live by our institutional values in the workplace, I would ask those with different views and understandings to please show kindness to each other. Nobody should be silenced and we must truly listen to the multitude of voices that speak out on matters. But rather than do so from different corners, we should come together and do this respectfully.

PeakPants · 14/07/2018 07:17

Well if he had said he utterly condemned people protesting about it he would have unleashed an unholy shitstorm. Of course Dr Stock’s comments will annoy trans people and allies and just as Dr Stock has a right to say these things, they have a right to be upset about it. Dr Stock supports the statement.

ChattyLion · 14/07/2018 10:44

Agree that condemning ‘protest’ would be wrong, but that is not what this Vice Chancellor is doing. Protest is for everyone to freely make when they don’t agree with stuff.

What has been going on in this case -steps way over the line past ‘protest at issues of disagreement’ into personal abuse of Dr Stock, which may be defamatory.

She has been called a transphobe which she is not.

It is not transphobic to be concerned about the rights of girls and women.

It is misogynistic and authoritarian (and untrue!) to try to silence those concerns about girls and women’s privacy, dignity and safety, by calling anyone who voices concerns ‘transphobic’.

PeakPants · 14/07/2018 11:22

It’s not for the VC to analyse the arguments made and reach a conclusion. He has defended her right to academic freedom- that was all she asked for and she supports his statement. Also, he may not necessarily agree with her arguments and nor should he have to. He has done a good thing here and more than many other VCs would do.

LookTwoFingers · 14/07/2018 11:52

Dr Stock doesn't require that the VC agree with everything she says, she has support to take an ideology apart and examine it.

theOtherPamAyres · 14/07/2018 12:16

I thought his letter was great.

Dare I say it - it had a feminine feel to it as it talked about an inclusivity that involved kindness, cooperation and making room for others.

A good job well done.

ChattyLion · 14/07/2018 13:50

I thought it was a good letter too don’t get me wrong but it just didn’t go far enough given the level of misguided attack the academic is under for voicing concerns for girls and women’s rights. It is not ‘transphobic’ to voice those concerns.

TheWizardofWas · 15/07/2018 11:52

Would be a bit more nterested if she hadnt called people who go on anti-demos fascists.

TheWizardofWas · 15/07/2018 11:54

Anti trump demos, i mean.

PeakPants · 15/07/2018 12:03

TheWizard, when did she say that? I am quite surprised.

SardinesAreYum · 15/07/2018 12:38

Just catching up.

Interesting to see that "trans" is now being used almost always as "trans and non binary".

pretty much everyone is non binary so not sure what happens when they work that out

Although having said that - while pretty much everyone is non binary, few people identify as that. And as what you say you are is more important than what you actually are, maybe they are OK.

R0wantrees · 15/07/2018 12:42

Open letter in the Morning Star July 4th:

"We, the undersigned, have a variety of positions about proposed changes to the Gender Recognition Act. Some of us have not yet fully formed our opinions.

We are calling for action within our movement to allow debate to take place over proposed changes to the Act.

You may be aware that on April 13 this year, an activist, Tara Wood was convicted of the assault by beating of Maria MacLachlan, a 60-year-old woman who had gathered with others in order to attend a meeting at which they could discuss the potential impact on women and girls of such a change to the law.

On March 8, an incident also occurred on a Bectu picket line in which trans activists, with no connection to the industrial dispute itself, mobbed and verbally attacked a female trade union member on the basis of having recognised her as an attendee at a similar meeting.

And in late April women in Bristol looking to meet and discuss changes to the Gender Recognition Act were met with masked activists blocking entrances to the venue, and deliberately intimidating those wishing to go inside.

More recently, a meeting organised by Woman’s Place UK was targeted with a bomb threat which Hastings Police are investigating as a serious incident.

These cases are part of systematic attempts to shut down meetings organised by women at which they can discuss potential legislative changes and the impact these may have on any sex-based rights already enshrined in law.

They draw the whole of our progressive movement into disrepute.

Some trans rights activists even continue to justify the use of violence, meaning that many women are simply too frightened to attend meetings that are both public and lawful in order that they may discuss their own rights." (continues)
Threads:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3297543-Why-dont-we-all-just-identify-as-Len-McCluskey

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3296684-Len-McCluskey

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3305189-LGBT-Labour-sending-out-Orwellian-letters-to-Morning-Star-letter-signatories

Letter discussed by James Kirkup 'Labour and Tories finally see the truth about the gender debate'

(extract)
"Now, I’m a dedicated centrist and I happen to agree with every word of that letter. I know paid-up Tories who would too.

But the contents of that letter are not the story here. The story is in the signatories, who include Len McCluskey of the Unite union, as well as several other senior trade unionists. (Lindsey German, a founder of Stop the War and a close friend of Jeremy Corbyn is there too; Andrew Murray, another very senior Corbynista signed a similar letter earlier this year. In short, a very significant and, in Labour terms, powerful group of unionists and activists has raised some quite serious concerns about the violent intimidation of women in the gender debate.

In a previous job as a political reporter, I’d probably have summarised that letter something like this:

Transgender activists who use threats of violence to frighten feminist critics are bringing the Labour movement into disrepute, Britain’s top trade union leader has said. Len McCluskey of the Unite union has joined several other close allies of Jeremy Corbyn to warn that “trans rights activists” using threats and intimidation have left many women “too frightened” to engage in political debate..." (continues)

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/07/labour-and-tories-finally-see-the-truth-about-the-gender-debate/

ChattyLion · 16/07/2018 06:11

R0wan what a great post. I really hope the tide will start to turn on the left.

TheWizardofWas · 16/07/2018 12:58

Peak - it is this quote - mind you I have only seen it retweeted:

twitter.com/search?q=consistent%20with%20fascist&src=typd

Wanderabout · 16/07/2018 13:42

She isn't saying people who go on anti-trump marches are racist. She's saying just because someone goes on such a march it wouldn't rule out the philosophical possibility they had fascist tendencies.

Have a look at the original thread.

Wanderabout · 16/07/2018 13:42

racist should read facist sorry

DonkeySkin · 16/07/2018 13:59

Wizard, if you read the full Twitter thread, it's clear that Stock wasn't calling anti-Trump demonstrators fascists. Rather she is responding to the implication (by another Twitter user) that merely being on an anti-Trump march proves that one can't be a fascist.

twitter.com/Docstockk/status/1018025386893078530

Someone (not Stock) on the thread likened the people who were trying to shut down the WPUK meeting to fascists. Another person demurred, saying that some of them had probably been on the anti-Trump march. Stock replied that taking part in such a march could still be consistent with fascistic tendencies, i.e., just because you're anti-Trump doesn't mean you can't hold fascist beliefs/principles. (As anyone who has been observing the growing shift towards totalitarianism by sections of the left will know.)

TRAs have then gleefully taken the tweet out of context, to claim she was saying that being on the march was indicative of fascistic tendencies, because misrepresenting, smearing and outright lying about feminists is what they do. Because they have no actual arguments.

TheWizardofWas · 16/07/2018 15:53

OK - thanks for clarification. But I would still disagree - there were not fascistic elements on that march - it was a tribune of progressives and liberals. I think it does smear people. OK, so was she pissed off because Owen Jones was on the platform? Whatever you think of his, there is no way that he is a fascist and I don't buy this idea of the left becoming totalitarian.

R0wantrees · 16/07/2018 16:15

TheWizardofWas

This is a video by Rose of Dawn (a trans woman) it's relevent & worth watching.

'What Does Co-Opting The Trans Movement Look Like?'

"Radical far-left activists often co-opt unrelated movements to enforce their ideology on others. Here, I take a look at this phenomenon taking place in the trans community."

Imnobody4 · 16/07/2018 17:41

TheWizardofWas
I don't share your optimism about the left. It has become more authoritarian than I've ever seen it. Dissent is regularly shouted down. Mussolini came from the left so did Mosley. Think they've lost their moral compass and replaced it with sanctimonious self righteousness.