Safeguarding girls and protecting women post Jimmy Saville & #metoo

[SpareRibFem]

I don't understand, there was a lot of hand wringing after the revelations about Jimmy Saville became widely accepted. #metoo there was more handwringing about the need to listen to women when they are telling you something that makes you uncomfortable.

Saville was allowed to get away with what he didn't because he created an aura of fear and people would afraid of the backlash if they spoke up. Those that did suffered.

We were promised something like that could never happen again...

And yet now despite many women and girls saying they feel afraid and uncomfortable sharing single sex spaces with someone with a penis weren't told we're bigoted and verbally abused for saying that. Our employers are contacted and told we're bigots, we're doxxed.

And organisations like girl guides are going still further in saying it must be kept a secret when girls are being forced to sleep and change with a male bodied teen with a penis (& teen levels of hormones) and I'm not even allowed to identify what sex that male bodied teen with a penis is on a public forum

Girl Guides are taking that approach despite the knowledge that abusers use secrecy and shame to their advantage.

Just like with Saville anyone who excesses concerns is shouted down and accused of being the person in the wrong by the powerful. There is a culture of fear now. Celebrity voices in particular (thinking people like Munroe Bergdorf, Stephen Fry and long list of others) are given more weight to shout down women's concerns. Male bodied people feelings are paramount despite almost all sexual abusers being male bodied (and most of the tiny tiny number of female bodied sexual abusers working with and being in thrall to a male bodied abuser)

Did we as a society learn nothing from Saville & the multitude of other abuse scandals that women and children/girls should be listened to, that celebrities voices help hide abusers, that telling girls to keep secrets from their parents about the presence of penises in their bedrooms and changing rooms and showing them they will be blamed and abused if they transgress and tell someone creates an environment where abuse can flourish.

What the hell happened?

IMO neoliberalism, identity politics and the rise of individualism.

Made worse by the internet and social media...

Rumours yes, but very little evidence, he was clever like that, and Louis came off looking like a conspiracist unfortunately. Maybe the ptb knew but could prove anything, and that’s why he stopped appearing on tv for a long time, but all we can do is speculate at this point.

interesting program on R4 now John O'Farrell series
'Things Can only get worse':
John O'Farrell looks back at the last 20 years in British politics, to try to make sense of where we are now. In the US the Democrats had chosen Barack Obama as their candidate, and John O'Farrell headed to Wisconsin to help canvas. Hope was in plentiful supply but 2008 would still bring a series of financial blows
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0b94sjq

It was an open secret IMO... I found him creepy and wouldn’t watch him as a child. I wasn’t at all surprised.

The problem was not that he was clever. It’s that he was supported and protected by powerful friends IMO. I don’t think him being clever adequately explains JS.

It helps people feel better to say ‘he was really bad’ or ‘he was really clever’ or ‘he groomed everyone’ because understanding that British institutions like the police and the BBC actively protected and defended him and re victimised and targeted people who were harmed by him, and may actually be bad like him just haven’t yet been exposed, is something they don’t want to hear.

People want things to ‘be nice’ to the point of delusion very frequently, especially if they feel powerless to do something about it.

We don't need to give abusers the benefit of the doubt in case we look like conspiracy theorists. The people infiltrating various institutions are the ones inside the conspiracy.

The people trying to expose the way they recruit, hide and and operate are not creating Project Fear. We need to learn those lessons.

Cross post; I was talking about JS.

As for insinuating that transpeople, Transwomen in particular are a danger to girls and women, that’s speculative at best based on ignorance of the facts. Transpeople in general are more likely to be the victims of an attack rather than the perpetrator, but were human too, were not perfect, no one is, and to single out a section of society like this based on outdated and ignorant stereotypes? Really?

Most of this thread is taken up with the dilution of safeguarding frameworks due to pressure and guidance from trans lobby groups that actually put trans children in danger of being targeted by abusers.

So try reading the thread before you come on throwing inaccurate insults.

Try this post of mine earlier in the thread, then look at what you've done. You are one of the useless idiots I'm talking about:

I've raised the safeguarding points I've made here so many times and been screamed down by transactivists - You vicious bigot! You think all trans people are paedos! - because they can't conceive that I'm talking about anyone else but them.

It doesn't matter how many times I say FFS, you useless idiot. I'm trying to protect the trans children from paedos - they can't hear me.

Many of us were not surprised when the revelations about Saville came out, and there's a notable trend of the unsurprised being predominantly female. Now, why might that be? Might there be something in the way that girls are brought up, and in the experiences that many of them have with men as tweens/teens, that would lead them to having a rather finely calibrated radar when it comes to male predators?

Ironic that when those same women then try to sound the alarm about safeguarding frameworks being diluted specifically because they can see how that will put trans kids at risk they're accused of being transphobic, because the person reading sees "predators will take advantage of this" and assumes that anyone talking about predators is talking about them.

Why would you assume that? It's not what anyone said.

I’ve no doubt that some people do have the best intentions in mind with regards to this, but you also need to realise that bigots will hijack topics like this to further their bigoted agenda.

IMO you need to realise that bigot does not mean what you think it means...

oopster
I’ve no doubt that some people do have the best intentions in mind with regards to this, but you also need to realise that bigots will hijack topics like this to further their bigoted agenda.

That's the most ironic post I've ever read. Posters are spelling out how people use lax safeguarding to target vulnerable children and you are still more concerned about adults who may be tarred with the same brush.

If people dont' want to be confused with abusers then don't use the tactics they use to remove safeguarding.

Don't ever have conversations in case someone else comes along and has a totally different conversation that you wouldn't agree with, ladies!

Everyone characterised people who had concerns as 'conspiracists' or loons because it seemed like a wild claim that couldn't be true and all we could do was speculate?

Is that not setting off alarm bells?

I’ve no doubt that some people do have the best intentions in mind with regards to this, but you also need to realise that bigots will hijack topics like this to further their bigoted agenda.

Did you mean to say, "I sincerely apologise for coming onto this thread without having read and throwing around the bigot insult in complete contradiction to everything you all were actually saying?^

If not, why not?

Italic fail. Bah. I lose my rag when my attempts to advocate for the safeguarding of trans-identified children are met with fuckwittery.

That's the most ironic post I've ever read. Posters are spelling out how people use lax safeguarding to target vulnerable children and you are still more concerned about adults who may be tarred with the same brush.

Quite. Is there a pulling your hair out with impotent fury at endless fuckwittery emoji?

Did you mean to say, "I sincerely apologise for coming onto this thread without having read and throwing around the bigot insult in complete contradiction to everything you all were actually saying?^

And also "I don't actually think that the safeguarding of children is less important than other people's reputations, honest".

We were all surprised and shocked when the revelations about JS came out

As I stated previously I wasn’t.
As for insinuating that transpeople, Transwomen in particular are a danger to girls and women, that’s speculative at best based on ignorance of the facts.

I’m not. I’m worried about predators exploiting any loop holes created. (Mainly as in my lifetime there have been so many scandals where predators have exploited loops holes that have eventually hit the media)

because the person reading sees "predators will take advantage of this" and assumes that anyone talking about predators is talking about them

^^This is a good point. Why do this?

Posters are spelling out how people use lax safeguarding to target vulnerable children and you are still more concerned about adults who may be tarred with the same brush

^^ This is a good point and it’s an idea I’ve seen expressed on many threads that have touch upon safeguarding. It’s an odd idea to me – as a parent my children’s wellbeing is one of the most important things to me the idea that I’s supposed to prioritised an adult strangers feelings over that is utterly bizarre. Yet time and again I see the idea stated as reasonable.

We have ideologues for politicians who eschew pragmatism and compromises. They are insulated from any fallout and don’t have solidarity with the most vulnerable in our society. Instead of recognising problems they lampoon those who point them out. They lampoon vulnerable people already.

The reality is that there will always be fraudsters and predators. The current situation is a gift to them.

But of course shoot the messenger. She’s a hysterical bigot.

There’s so much food for thought on this thread- thank you all.

Only slightly marred by the “I haven’t actually read the thread or attempted to think about the issues raised, but by God, I better get right in there and call them bigots right now!”

It’s an odd idea to me – as a parent my children’s wellbeing is one of the most important things to me the idea that I’s supposed to prioritised an adult strangers feelings over that is utterly bizarre. Yet time and again I see the idea stated as reasonable.

Absolutely, hence the references to predators. To talk about sexual predators is not anti those who believe they can change sex.

It is pro-children and pro their safeguarding. There are paedophiles and sex offenders in very male population - to discount that is discounting fact.

Catching up on the discussion.

There are pedophiles and sex offenders in every male population

Safe-guarding works when it applies to everyone

Yes so much this. We already know pedophiles are clever and manipulative enough to get around the rules and find some way why it doesn't apply to them. If we're already saying the safe-guarding rules don't apply to a group it's easy the abuser just becomes part of that group. It obviously don't mean we think All TW are abusers, but if we leave that loophole someone will use it.

Unlike Scouts the girl guides have not had a (public) problem with pedophiles becoming leaders (yet) because it's very very rare for a woman to be a pedophile and it's been single sex so that's limited the likelihood of peer sex abuse. Their naivety is showing.

@LangCleg

My friend and I once decided that we would write to Jim'll Fix It and my father - who never said no to anything I ever wanted to do - absolutely forbade any such endeavour. "The man is a pervert. Over my dead body will you go anywhere near him. Write to another show."

My mother said exactly the same.

This is the thing - not so much that people knew, per se, but they (men, women, and children alike) had such a strong feeling of 'wrongness'.

We're all just fancy monkeys, and sometimes our monkey brains need to be listened to.