Should straight men HAVE to sleep with transwomen?

[MandalaYogaTapestry]

Apologies if this has been raised and discussed but it only occurred to me now and I am genuinely curious.

So transactivists insist that lesbians should accept transwomen (most of whom still have male bodies and male organs) as sexual partners and that refusing to have sex with a dick is hate and bigotry.

On the same grounds, do transwomen also insist that heterosexual males should be fine about having relationships with them as they would with biological females, otherwise it's genitalia fetish?

Is this happening?

Sorry posted too soon

So transactivists insist that lesbians should accept transwomen (most of whom still have male bodies and male organs) as sexual partners and that refusing to have sex with a dick is hate and bigotry.

Could this possibly be backed up with a direct quote OP? I see a lot of 'transactivists say this' on Mumsnet but have never seen the evidence.

So lesbians are actually allowed to automatically exclude as sexual partners those men who identify as women, bespin?

That isn't transphobic?

It's not happening and it belies the truth that many (not all) transwomen are still firmly in the male camp and have confused a sexual predeliction for feeling feminine with gender identity.

Let me put it bluntly, they have erections, they want sex with women, they would like to penetrate them if possible. They are men.
There are some who like to be with a man too, but typically in a submissive role, because their sexualised take on being feminine is to act out being the naughty little slut.
Sorry to be so blunt, and I know it's not the case for every trans person, but there are absolutely thousands of 'trans' like this whose prime motivation for being a woman is to fulfill a sexualised fantasy of being lesbian, or submissive slut.
I use the S word to with caution but feel it necessary to illustrate how some of them think.

If genuine trans people need to pick a fight, it shouldn't be against biological women. It should be with the countless people using the guise of 'trans' to fullfil their sexual aims, and when it's not working out for them, they'll use their typically male traits of mental and physical intimidation, verbal abuse and underhanded strategies force their will on others (women).

Suffragettes didn't argue for equality in the bedroom, they had more important things at hand... Above and beyond sex.

Many trans though are primarily focussed on sex and forcing their sexual preferences on others. Is their anything more typically male than that?

Nobody should HAVE to sleep with anybody, or with any specific category of people.

*there, damn phone

candles as a recent example, it was in the reaction to the Pride. There is a thread about it.

iliketosmellcandles
Its called the Cotton Ceiling, there was a thread about it recently.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3294339-cotton-ceiling-evidence-thread?msgid=79095227

*So lesbians are actually allowed to automatically exclude as sexual partners those men who identify as women, bespin?

That isn't transphobic?*

Are gay men excluding women from their dating pool sexist?
It isn't transphobic to exclude trans people from your dating pool. Nobody should have to have sex with people they don't want to.

I rarely see straight men or women harassed in this way. I do see lesbians and to a lesser degree gay men attacked.

Honestly, you just have to search something like 'straight men who won't date transwomen' and find there has been plenty said about it. It is definitely an issue people talk about and have for quite a few years.

But straight men have a much larger pool of potential partners than lesbians do, so it is statistically less of an issue for them.

I agree with you OP and this has occurred to me too, why are straight men not being pressured to consider transm2fs as sexual partners?

It seems like pressurising/bullying those with the least voice first.

Only the most vulnerable will be talked in to a relationship by cross-examining trans person. Actually there are a lot of vulnerable women.

I think it comes down to how society stills sees it as more of a woman's role to consider other peoples feelings and be accommodating than a mans.

Please provide statistics that show that transwomen as a group are killed or assaulted on a regular basis, or in large numbers.

My understanding is that the oft-quoted evidence of the vulnerability of transwomen in terms of murder and sexual assault, was actually taken from a study which centred on transwomen prostitutes in South America.

I think it's important that statistics or conclusions are drawn factually and that the correct context is applied - otherwise it is potentially misleading.

Nobody should feel obliged to have sex with anyone else.

Simple.

To be fair I don't think trans women have any problem with finding enough straight men to sleep with them. Check out some of the big swinging forums on the subject.

But that's by the by. The law ptects everyone's right not to sleep with anyone they don't want to, regardless of their expressed sexuality, trans status or whatever else. It protects every single person's right to their own bodily autonomy. End of.

"It protects every single person's right to their own bodily autonomy"

Not in all circs but that's probably a different thread!

certainly dicky people always have the right to full bodily autonomy AFAIK. cunty people it is not a full right when we are pregnant.

Actually the consent to having things in your cunt goes out the window when it's birth time as well.

I would say that the idea of full bodily autonomy is not respected / enshrined in law when it comes to reproductive matters, for cunty people.

TornFromTheInside - you will notice that we are all dancing on the heads of pins to say anything concrete because we have no idea what the new guidelines here actually mean and we might get smitten. Here's my stab at it:

It's a matter of dating pool size and male socialisation that leads to the view one is entitled to sex, really, isn't it?

Most people are heterosexual. Sexuality seems to be mostly stable pre- and post- transition. Therefore, there is little demand on straight men because most trans don't want to date them or have sex with them as they themselves are heterosexual. The minority of trans who are homosexual might be making these demands but there aren't so many of them and there are also enough outwardly heterosexual men who are MSTW to accommodate them.

On the other hand, there is a tiny number of lesbians being expected to accommodate a proportionally large number of heterosexual trans within their dating pool. Because the people wanting to date them are a) from the majority heterosexual population, and b) are bringing their male-socialised entitlement to sex with them.

There is a useful attempt at the population proportion and stats on an unrolled Twitter thread here:

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1009474061351772161.html

So transactivists insist that lesbians should accept transwomen (most of whom still have male bodies and male organs) as sexual partners and that refusing to have sex with a dick is hate and bigotry.

This is entirely wrong..... let me fix it.

So transphobes insist that 'transactivists insist that lesbians should accept transwomen (most of whom still have male bodies and male organs) as sexual partners and that refusing to have sex with a dick is hate and bigotry', when this simply is not the case.

I wonder if we are becoming too in danger here of taking the comments of a few mentally ill teenagers on twitter or tumblr, as something that the majority of trans people think? They just sound like incels to me

There are some pretty popular youtubers who have espoused this view to much applause.

Cotton ceiling seminar was a session at a conference / thingy run bu planned parenthood, they're definitely not teenagers on twitter

It goes like this:

Transwomen are women
Some transwomen are lesbians
Lesbians are attracted to women
Many lesbians who say they support their trans sisters and agree that trans women are women find this statement only goes so far (hence "the cotton ceiling")
If a lesbian believes TWAW then she would inlcude them in her pool of potential sexual partners (note it's always about sex rarely about dating which is interesting)
If she won't consider TW in her pool of potential sexual partners then she doesn't really believe TWAW so (gentle answer) needs to examine her transphobia or (stronger answer) is a bigot and a TERF.

It is an entirely logical argument >> if TWIW then obviously lebsians should include them in their pool of potential sexual partenrs.

Head explodes.

"a few mentally ill teenagers on twitter or tumblr,"

Loads of men fetishise lebsians, it's not new or original.

Corrective rape is a thing.

My point here isn't that anyone is going to rape anyone, but that pressure on lesbians to accept penis is standard >> lots of men find it perfectly reasonable to ask lesbian women / couples for sex. Or ask what they do in bed. Etc. Acceptance of dick has been enforced violently and continues to be so in plenty of parts of the world. And sometimes here (lesbians being raped by angry men is nothing new either).

This is just a "gotcha" to the standard fixation that lots of men have with lesbians.

The grossest thing is the classification. The idea that to get a lesbian girlfriend who has never had sex with a man, carries more cache than one who has. Bisexual women are a step down again.

I know I am talking about men here and not transwomen, however, as with all of this, there is a ? around who is doing what and why. Access to lesbians with a means to coerce them would be a pretty big driver for some blokes.

The interesting thing is that a lot of trans rights stuff seems to focus on who will have sex with them / or not / and why, and people saying no is seen as a potentially transphobic actions.

Meanwhile the women's rights movement has been and continues to be very focussed on trying to STOP people having sex with us/ wanting to have sex with us (forced marriage, rape, coercion, underage marriage, street harrassment etc etc).