Kendall Jenna

[PlanetPiffle]

Hi feminists, I’m a relative new comer to the feminist boards although I have been a mnetter for ages.

I just wondered if I could gauge your views on pics like this one www.thesun.co.uk/tvandshowbiz/6701065/kendall-jenner-wows-in-a-white-bikini-from-her-kendall-kylie-range-as-she-relaxes-at-sister-khloe-kardashianss-la-home/ Apologies for the sleazy source of the link, it was either that, the star or the bloody bastard mail.

I have a teenage dd whom I am trying to tune in to feminist issues. So obviously Kendall Jenna is not a feminist issue but I’m torn. Should I be saying, she’s an adult woman, she can do what she likes and if she wants to post photos of herself with virtually all but her clit out ( ) then that’s her prerogative.

On the other hand I look at my short, curvy daughter (who is already a slave to Instagram) and know she will never look like that and that she already feels her curves look awful (for reference she’s a size 6 so I’m not deluded about her size) and people like Kendall Jenna and these other Instagram celebrities create an unrealistic, unobtainable example which give teens like my dd a good old stick to beat themselves with.

Any thoughts? I’m happy to be educated!

I think (and I'm no expert) that you need to teach that women have a right to do what they want with their bodies but that society has taught many people that appearance is more important than it actually is. And that no one actually looks like any of the photos, everything is fake - lights, make up, surgery, photoshop.

I know what you mean OP. I grew up as a teenager in the 90s when Kate Moss and heroin chic were the big looks. It is difficult when your body is growing and you feel awkward.

I think there is a bigger range of bodies in the media nowadays though. There are certainly a lot more curvy models and instagrammers who come in different shapes and sizes, so hopefully your DD will grow up with a wider range of role models.

I think the key is not to treat it as something of great importance either way.
You can't make your dd come off instagram when that's what all her friends are looking at but you can support her in finding more interesting things to do, which is ultimately what will build her self esteem regardless of whether or not she looks like girls are currently supposed to look.

Some people do get lucky and win the genetic lottery. Some just win the lottery and get surgery. Others still use photoshop as mentioned (though they're the minority for major changes)

Its important to make your kids aware that how valued they are is not dependent upon their looks alone.

This being said, bodily autonomy is important and these instagram models are doing it for a career, something not everyone has the opportunity to do.

This is the opinion of a trans woman with an ED who had abusive parents and as yet has no children of her own. Just so you know where the advice is coming from.

Definitely give her the tools (feminist analysis) to see how the pressures on women work. Caitlin Moran's books might feel like feminism lite compared to what's on here but they're very accessible.

I agree with the Caitlin Moran books. I also read The Beauty Myth by Naomi Wolf as a teen. Its very relatable and explains the fakery.

That bikini bottom looks so uncomfortable!

Kendall Jenner is genetically blessed.

Tell your daughter to look at real people not photoshopped images. She will see that most people are average looking.

Well a few things here. First of all I don’t think the photos in that article are really very bad, it’s just what you would see someone wear on a beach, though the current trend for ever tinier bikini bottoms is a bit much. It will pass though.

I don’t really blame individual women like Kendall, who I’m sure has never thought much about feminism or claimed to be a feminist, for their sexy Instagram pics. I think they are harming other women, yes, but that’s not what they’ve set out to do. They just want to make money and/or get likes from men because it feels good. It’s society that’s the problem.

However I will say I do get annoyed when I see women who are very vocal about feminists yet have Instagram feeds full of sexy pictures. Sometimes even going so far as to suggest posting their butt pic or whatever is a feminist act! Again, they are not the problem, but the hypocrisy is glaring.

Having said all that, there is an obvious danger in going down the route that women showing skin is wrong. It’s very frustrating because I believe women should be able to dress as revealing or unrevealingly as they want, go naked if they want, but the male-pandering nature of a certain kind of Instagram picture is so very frustrating... it’s subservience packaged as liberation...

I agree that while Kendall isn't really a feminist issue per se, the constant objectification of women clearly IS.
In the linked article, the Sun has written a whole piece on Kendall's body and how great she looks in a bikini. They didn't even really try to mention any of Kendall's actual achievements or who she is as a person. Admittedly, I think she does work as a model (?) and comes from a reality TV show family, so her looks are linked to her career explicitly in a way that wouldn't affect most women as much.
My opinion is that women have the right to dress however they wish, and post pictures on social media of themselves in pretty much whatever attire they want. But the way society works is that there is constant judgment, of women's bodies in particular, and seeking validation in this manner will ultimately be a trap for most.
I've learned that looks do not have any bearing on what a woman is worth, what she can achieve, or who she is as a person.
The most important thing is that one shows oneself love. We're all blessed with our bodies, and have to remember that we would not be alive without them. The first way to become unhappy with one's body is by constantly comparing oneself to others and only seeing shortcomings. The media/social media also really distorts what women actually look like. If you go into a female changing room, you notice that we come in all shapes and sizes, and no body is "perfect," so the only thing you can really do is focus on keeping your own body healthy and happy.

You could ask your daughter to watch this 15 minute Ted X talk from Jean Kilbourne an ex model during the 70s. She does give longer lectures. She is a second wave feminist who has successfully managed to continually update her lectures about the dangerous ways adverts see women and girls. She specifically deals with the use now of porn and sexualisation of young girls in order to hook them into a lifetime of shaming.

Babies recognise logos from the age of 6 months.

More from Jean Kilbourne who is famous for Killing us Softly.

If it was just about women being allowed to do what they want, and if we assume that there are no differences in male and female brains, then we would see that men would also be flaunting their stuff and newspapers would be reporting on men's bodies and fashion and make up and cosmetic surgery to the same degree as they do for women.

So the difference in focus between male and female suggests that patriarchical control still exists and is driven by sex, even if it's dressed up as freedom of choice

And the growth in images of unreaslitic male bodies and male grooming is probably driven by a limited set of toffs who want to extract money from insecure men as well as women

Smash the patriarchy and capitalism? I thought one was meant to grow up and out of that kind of thinking

I have a teen daughter, measuring 1.73m who wears a size 40. Her legs are slim and strong. She believes she is fat and unattractive and nothing we say can change her opinion. She is aware of Photoshop and Instagram and is quick to say everyone should live their life as they see fit but seems incapable of applying that to herself. She has probably watched every video out there on self-confidence etc. There is more at play in her case, I should add, including social awkwardness because she is a brain which has given rise to the beginning of an eating disorder for which she is seeing someone. It is an uphill struggle though.

Or teach her that being judgemental and slating others to make yourself feel better is vile.

No chance of wearing that style of bikini bottom without spending far too much time and money on having your pubic hair removed. Adding yet another chore to the job of being patriarchy compliant before hitting the beach.

placemats thanks for introducing me to Jean Kilbourne. I've just watched the first video and thought it was great.

Thanks all. Interesting view points. I’m going to watch the Jean K Ted talk and see if that is accessible for my dd.

Just a quick response to the comments on ogling men’s bodies, is that because they are inherently less appealing/interesting? Are we conditioned to think that? If I saw a picture of a naked man and a naked woman I’d glance at his penis and then my attention would be drawn to the woman for longer (I’m straight, married, kids etc).

Is that because I’ve been taught women’s bodies are more worth looking at (because let’s face it, women’s bodies are more interesting, not to mention they can grow and feed a whole other person...)?

Or is it just because penises and testicles are pretty yuk to look at ....

You are very welcome Stilettos

Planet I would say if your daughter is a teenager then the video is suitable.

And now I'm off to Ibiza for a fun filled week. xx

Planet I suspect it's a taught reaction. After all from a baby you here "what a petty girl" whereas boys might be strong or lively. You may also be unconsciously comparing yourself to the woman. But I couldn't prove it.

The Kardashian Jenners spend an incredible amount of money on their appearance, in order to make an incredible amount of money. (Look at pics of young Kylie and Kendall, they're normal humans! Btw, even Kendall hasn't escaped people cussing her looks. When she started modelling, people insinuated she only got jobs coz she's so famous. Did you hear about Lexi something and Binx Walton leaving snide comments on her instagram?) You can tell your daughter that in real life perfect is impossible.

Looking 'good' and being provocative is their living. Looking good in a male dominated society often boils down to looking sexually attractive to men. Women can wear what they want but our thoughts are heavily influenced.

People might look more at the picture of a naked woman because we have internalized the male gaze. We've learned to look at bodies as a straight male would.

People from other societies may see bodies differenltly. For example, there were far more male nudes in ancient Greece and Rome, and perhaps if you could find a society that hasn't been heavily influenced by western media (like, idk, the masai or something) they would value other aspects of appearance. Imho

I don't see what the problem is though? She is literally wearing a bikini. From how you described it I thought she'd be naked

I'm sorry that your daughter and many others might feel insecure seeing this photo. But what is the solution to this? To tell her that it isn't ok to post a photo of herself in a bikini?

I guess the Op was just looking for advice on how to explain to her teenage daughter why the world is full of pictures of practically naked young girls, in a way that will make her daughter feel ok about herself?

It's also a big problem that this kind of "liberation" is only available to young women who look a certain way.

If one is older of has fat rolls or less perky breasts, they are certainly not allowed to claim their sexuality and flaunt it.

Like the Ancient Greece observation, thanks

Caitlin Moran’s sit com is amazing, Della is one of my favourite tv characters of all time. It’s pretty sweary though!

I think it’s really important to reinforce how valued your daughter is for who she is as a person and the skills she is developing. For example, people often comment on my daughters hair, so I say stuff like, ‘thanks! It’s almost as unusual as her sense of humour! When she grows up, she want to go to be a mini cab driver’ etc etc.

And make sure she sees real adult female bodies. Take her to the local pool for the ladies session, or the yoga class popular with retired women, and fill her world with marvellous women writers, women artists, women activists, women scientists.

My littlest is only 6 (the other two are 11 and 18) but her current favourite crush is Tammie Jo Shults

heavy.com/news/2018/04/tammie-jo-shults-pilot-southwest-flight-1380-engine-hero/

The glossy Jenner types will always be there, so all we can really do is provide a counterweight.

Oh! And be kind to ourselves. So much of what we learn is modelled for us by our parents, we just don’t really notice until we’re adults.