A man raped me, another tried to. They were not animals. They were men

[UglyCathKidstonBag]

What an incredibly brave piece from Amy Remeikis in The Guardian today

“A friend told me it’s because he thought they were not men. That they were animals. “How do you even begin to reason with an animal like that?”

But he’s wrong. They are men.

They are sons and brothers, and fathers and boyfriends and husbands and friends and co-workers and the guys around you in the cafe.”

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/05/a-man-raped-me-another-tried-to-they-were-not-animals-they-were-men

Changes in attitudes to smoking took time and involved a combination of factors but it was societal change that made it less acceptable. The health impacts alone had some effect but not a great one, condemnation by non smokers had some effect, but combine those with changes to the law that made public smoking unacceptable and then an alternative that is seen as more acceptable (vaping) means that attitudes have begun to change and while there are still people that choose to smoke it is decreasing.

Now look at that in the context of rape culture and misogyny.

Anti rape campaigns alone have some effect but not a great one, women calling this out has some effect but not a great one, but if we combine this with other factors , e.g. , harsher punishments for sexual assault and rape, no longer blaming the victim/ survivor, making misogyny a hate crime
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-44740362
then we might begin to have an impact.

"No the detention analogy means that you accuse all men of being rapists if you say " men are rapists""

No

Lots of people say the vast majority of sex offenders are men
That a large minority of men have done or will commit sex offences
That society to a point ignores and excuses these crimes
And that men as a group seem to do little to change anything, seeing it as a "women's issue", rather than accepting this is a problem that comes from their group, that with their best efforts women have little effect over, and can they please just stop ignoring it / saying it's nothing to do with them / that women and girls have to sort it out etc etc

Men run the world. It is in their power to change this.

Well said Sardines

No the detention analogy means that you accuse all men of being rapists if you say " men are rapist

This is also used as a derailing tactic - part of the not all men mentality.
the men's feelings will be hurt if you say this so you can't say it. Its out in abundance on the lesbians at pride posts.
We have people on that thread saying that get the L out are calling all trans people rapists because they mentioned rape culture in reference to the cotton ceiling and the ongoing pressure on lesbians to enter relationships with trans women even when they point out they are same sex attracted and people with penis's aren't lesbians

thenproblem is that if you blame a class for something, you decrease the likelihood that the class will do anything about it. doesnt matter if they should and they could, they won't.

its especially important to get the society drivers correct, because unlike smoking which has a negative impact on the smoker, sexual violence rarely does, and it's a lot harder to prove.

Its not blaming a class its pointing out a fact - the fact the majority of sexual assaults/ rapes/ violence are committed by men.
Men see this as saying all men are rapists rather than seeing it as this seems to be a problem with masculinity what can we do to fix it.

Even if we didn't point this out the men as a class wouldn't do anything to fix the problem because it doesn't affect them. Well sexual violence does affect men just not to the same level that it affects women. Violence does affect men but its always talked about as an aberration rather than a pattern. It has to be shown to be bad for men in a continuous consistent way and that changing it will be good for them as a whole, even though it may be bad for those who commit these crimes.
though this is reminiscent of the handmaids tale - better never means better for everyone. It always means worse for some

If we go back to the smoker analogy - it wasn't most smokers that enacted the change because even though smoking had a negative effect on them they didn't want to change, especially as it is an addiction. It was the other people affected by the smokers that campaigned for change, relatives, those affected by passive smoking etc. While there were benefits to the smokers that choose to stop there were more benefits to society as a whole. And I know some smokers that argue that it made life worse for them as they no longer had the freedom to smoke were they wanted.

The point is society needs convincing that changing rape culture/ toxic masculinity will be of wider benefit and at the moment that's not possible because the patriarchy provides a better benefit to men as a class even though its bad for women as a class.
I am not suggesting some feminist version of Gilead were women take over and force men to comply (though lets take a moment to imagine what that would be like, but the way to change society is to convince men as a class of the benefits and thats' the hard part

thenproblem is that if you blame a class for something, you decrease the likelihood that the class will do anything about it. doesnt matter if they should and they could, they won't.

I really don't believe that's true.

White people as a class are quite rightly blamed for racism. So, 'good' white people have been challenged by this to reflect on their own behaviours. It's now unacceptable among 'good' white people either to themselves be racist in word or deed, and it's also considered poor form to tolerate such behaviours in others.

Same thing with heterosexuals as a class.

Neither racisms nor homophobia have beeen eliminated. They may have reached the same steady state . Violence against women is not decreasing, another shove is needed to move things on.

They've been vastly reduced, over quite a short time period. White and straight people mostly now take responsibility for their behaviour and help moderate and alter others.

I believe there are enough 'good men' to do similar but they need to understand clearly that men must be a large part of the solution.