A man raped me, another tried to. They were not animals. They were men

[UglyCathKidstonBag]

What an incredibly brave piece from Amy Remeikis in The Guardian today

“A friend told me it’s because he thought they were not men. That they were animals. “How do you even begin to reason with an animal like that?”

But he’s wrong. They are men.

They are sons and brothers, and fathers and boyfriends and husbands and friends and co-workers and the guys around you in the cafe.”

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/05/a-man-raped-me-another-tried-to-they-were-not-animals-they-were-men

Naming male violence as a problem causes male violence? Cool story, bro.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/kateharding.net/2009/10/08/guest-blogger-starling-schrodinger’s-rapist-or-a-guy’s-guide-to-approaching-strange-women-without-being-maced/amp/

Hear hear Deathgrip.

(I think) Most rape and sexual assault isn't some rabid monster pinning a screaming woman down, though of course its traumatising whatever the circumstances. For me, it took years to acknowledge that it had happened, because it wasn't violent and I didn't believe he was 'like that'

It's coercion, pressure, ignoring body language, pushing boundaries. If men believe that only monsters commit rape, it's easy for them to say 'but I'm not like that' or 'I didn't do anything wrong - I'm not a monster!'

It also leads to victims questioning whether or not they can even call it rape, whether or not they have a right to be upset. At least in my experience.

Agreed random - I’m so sorry you experienced that too. I was in a relationship from 15 to 20, which was very caring and considerate. Then I became single and was assaulted and / or raped by three sexual partners in a row. I have no doubt they wouldn’t characterise it that way, but that’s what happened. That’s how it goes with the majority of situations and I’m sick of hearing men get defensive and say they’d never do such a thing when I’ve seen so many who absolutely will in the right circumstances. This wasn’t power trips by sexual predators, this was men who felt their needs were more important than my consent and that if they could manipulate me into consenting, they’d done what they needed to do and anything after that was acceptable.

I wish that men, privately at least, would start to examine where in their own past they’ve behaved in coercive ways and understand the impact of that. I had this discussion with my DH and he acknowledged that he behaved this way as a teenager as did all of his friends, and it has really changed his perspective on the issue.

they have the ability to make a choice between good and evil.

Sure, but the problem here is the normalising of the “evil” acts to the point where many see it as an expected part of dating / being sexually active. We need to move the conversation towards the everyday abuse perpetrated by those who would publicly condemn “predators” and “would never do something like that”, despite the fact that they have.

I agree deathgrip
men say they would never do that but think its ok to laugh at a rape joke cause its banter, or cat calls or stopping random women in the street is fine cause they are just trying to engage women, or that groping women is harmless fun and no one really get hurts, or that persuading their partner to do something they have objected to is fine its not really coercion, but they haven't actually raped anyone cause they never used violence
and for anyone who says not all men - see my earlier post

Actually I should have said saying man will lead to changes behaviour, it is more likely to lead to increased levels of sexual misconduct

That reads as a threat to me. If you name male violence it'll get worse.

Some of the Rules of Misogyny seem applicable...

No it's not a threat. We have got to change behaviours. Specifically the behaviours of a large percentage of men. I am suggesting that if we can find a way to divide the group of men we might have more succes than if we let that divide be between men and women.

The current approach seems to be glorifying bevahiours...look at the incel community as an extreme example

Yelling "men must change" has not helped. Violence against women is not falling. If you do the same thing over and over but expect a different result that is stupidity. If all you want to do is play a victim fine. But I am a very angry victim and I want change. And you won't get it by just blaming men for the behaviour of other men and expecting them to change for the better.

they have the ability to make a choice between good and evil

Sure, but the problem here is the normalising of the “evil” acts to the point where many see it as an expected part of dating / being sexually active

That isn't remotely what I was saying. My objection is the attempts to try to find a word such as "animal" or "choice isn't clear cut" as if there is something external which just can't be helped.

Does focussing much more on the victims help? So saying violence against women must stop rather than men must stop violence against women?

So a headline of men raped me could be replaced by woman seriously hurt by rape

Yeah this drives me mad. The 'rapers gonna rape, what can you do' argument is such a cop out.

You see it in things like discussion about objectifying and commodifying women - 'well some men are going to do it anyway so let's just carry on dehumanising women'.

It's just a way of absolving men of their responsibility.

We (societies) all of them, always focus on the victim.

And invisibilise the cause.

Women and girls "get themselves raped" the same as in the old days they "got themselves into trouble" (pregnant) - the language that is in common use 100% acts - and it is deliberate - to put the spotlight on the victim and away as far as possible from the cause. Tries to make the victim the cause, that they did something foolish and what happened was inevitible, an act of god, force of nature, not anordinary man or men deciding to commit a crime.

I noticed this in the article "A couple driving past had also looked away, they later told me, thinking it was a domestic, until one of them asked: What if it was our daughter?".

This says it all - women are the property of men. They were going to ignore a bleeding woman being dragged away from the main street in broad daylight because they assumed the man was her partner / dad / brother / whatever and therefore it was "their business" or actually "his business". This journalist is Australian, we like to think that in some parts of the world we have got past women as property. We have not. We just pretend that it's not true and make the right noises when a man goes too far. We also expect no better of men. That awful story in the news just now, the little girl. What did most people think, when she went missing? I imagine, oh god, I hope she's alright, but maybe, probably, a man has got hold of her. Why do we think this? If there was no problem, we wouldn't think this. If it was the occasional monster. It's not the occasional monster, women and girls are raped all over the world every second of every minute of every day. Some are murdered. Many live it day in day out. Of course we need to say what is happening. It's men, men are the ones who do this. Not monsters. The rapists I have known have been ordinary, unremarkable men. A lot of them have done things (to my friends, to me) that they woudl NOT categorise in their heads as wrong, criminal. THIS is the problem.

I agree with the article, they are not monsters, and looking away, will not help.

"So a headline of men raped me could be replaced by woman seriously hurt by rape"

These are already the headlines.

Things like "Woman and children dead in tragic incident" when it should be "Man arrested on suspicion of murdering wife and children". It's only in the last couple of years with massive pressure that the press are starting to mention the men in the pictures here as anything other than a by-note at the end with some commentary about what a great guy he was. And you want to change it back already?

A headline like 'man penetrates woman's body without her consent' would be even better. It gets right to the crux of what rape is.

I suppose a lot of it is about word counts and things though, which is why it usually ends up being 'woman raped' or 'woman sexually assaulted'.

Sexual disrespect and violence seems to be growing problem especially in younger people. How do you think we can reduce sexual violence given what is known about human psychology ?

Do you disagree that focuss on the association between the words men and rapist and violence is more likely to increase problems than decrease them?

I agree btw that an association between the word animal and rapist doesn't help anybody either .

" How do you think we can reduce sexual violence given what is known about human psychology ?"

Can you be more specific about what bits of what is known about human psychology that you are referring to?

"Do you disagree that focuss on the association between the words men and rapist and violence is more likely to increase problems than decrease them?"

I have never heard this idea before. By naming male rapists as male we are going to cause more men to rape...?

FWIW in Engalnd and Wales the law DEFINES rape as a crime that is committed by men (recent addition to the stats of women with penises notwithstanding).

A focus on the victims achieves nothing, that's where it's been for all of time. People dont' actually care, except in the most extreme of cases, or with certain types of victims.

#metoo was massively focussed on victims being harmed and after about 2 weeks the societal response (and one i heard from men at work) was this has got boring now needs to stop, it's unfair to say things when there has been no conviction (even when in the majority no-one was naming anyone just telling stories), you're exaggerating now stop it, and finally, this is an attack on men, women these days, you can't even say hello to one without being accused of something.

In general terms, if you think yourself part of a group you will want to behave like that group. and if you are part of a group and feel that group is being attacked you will become defensive and may even change your behaviour to be more like your tribe.. Also telling people what to do, like do more exercise, tends not to work . I think these are fairly basic behaviours . The exercise question came up in the press this week.

a message that says most women go to their smear test tends to get more women going than a message saying 25% of women failed to go.
I think that is why I am told 97% of people made their nhs appointment, not 3% did not.

So a message saying most men are not rapists would be more likely to discourage rape than a message that men must change their behaviour and not rape? My theory anyway.

Which I admit I said slightly different to what I said earlier, I evolve my thoughts by listening to you guys.

While most men are not rapists, a large minoroty of men are / have committed sex offences, if not then it wouldnt' be true that the mast majority of women have experienced multiple incidents.

The culture amongst society and men in particular does have worrying attitudes to men, women (and girls) and sex. A lot of it is based in protecting men pretty much no matter what they do, and blaming girls and women for men's actions. Not just with sex offences, but everything really.

Men in general need to take more responsibiltiy in society. They run the country the laws the police the everything. They could change this. They choose not to because it doesn't matter to them. How can we make it matter?

Men seem to have a knee jerk defence of their group (other men) that women dont' seem to do so much. Bros before hos in shothand I guess. Why is this? They other us, see us as lesser. Many many men quite simply do not really see the point of women except to look after them / fuck them / give them children. They would rather socialise with / work with other men.

Women can't change men. They need to change themselves. But they don't want to. So we are left with going on at them saying "please stop raping us and our kids" and TBF things have got better at least in law although they seem to be going backwards again with cressida dick's statement about acquintance rape & historic child sex abuse.

Meanwhile a little girl has been raped and murdered. They never say why they do it. That annoys me. This 16 year ols, they need to ask him why, and then tell us. All of this. Ask them why and tell us. Tell us - are they upset, do they repent? Don't they give a fuck? I want to know. They never tell us. This information - focus on these men not as "monsters" and so why bother asking but try to get to the fucking bottom of why they do all this shit - that would help. When a man rapes a woman, or shouts obscene abuse at a schoolgirl, or rapes a child, or kills, I want to know WHY. I really do.

In general terms, if you think yourself part of a group you will want to behave like that group

Men aren't just a group - they are 50% more or less of the adult humans on the planet.

and if you are part of a group and feel that group is being attacked you will become defensive and may even change your behaviour to be more like your tribe

Are you seriously saying that criticism of individual rapists is so unpalatable to the group of men in general that their response will be for men who were previously non- rapists to go out and commit rape?

Also telling people what to do, like do more exercise, tends not to work

Not comparable- not exercising hurts only the person being lonely. The world is far from perfect but even in my lifetime we have told people to stop doing things which harm others with some success. Of course domestic violence against women and children is still a major problem but it isn't that long ago that it wasn't even recognised as a problem

No I am not quite saying that critism of individual rapists leads to more men becoming rapists, More saying men are rapists groups all men together with rapists and that may make some think rape is normal for men.. a man raped a woman is one thing, men are rapists is another ( even i both are factually the same they may have different impact)

I think similar observations have been made around the incel community. The morevtheir actions are highlighted and the more their characters are discussed the more people join that cult

Smoking hurts both the smoker and their family, yet look how difficult it has been to change that. All my lifetime. Smoking has been made increasingly unacceptable somehow. A mixture of law, cost, threats, removal of opportunity( hum. Single sex spaces anyone) a provision of alternatives,support to change, and a generation of children who grew up telling Mam and dad not to smoke because they were frightened , Less smoking on tv.

Smokers have been marginalised. That was easy because you can see and smell a smoker. I would like to do that to rapists and perverts and creeps.

I am thinking how "unfair" it felt when the whole class got detention because of the actions of a few. A ineffective mechanism that did not improve respect between pupils and teacher and did not improve behaviour

All men are not getting "detention" because some of them are rapists.

Using that analogy, all girls are getting detention because some men are rapists.

We are the ones who are told to stay in, not go out at night, not walk through the park, not walk by ourselves etc etc

The reason we have the incel community is because in come countries women are coming out of the status of property, and laws around rape are starting to be taken a little more seriously. They demand that women (girls) be given to men, to serve them, that rape be legalised etc. To blame this on women starting to say that rape is a crime that has a perpetrator and it is him who is to blame (rather than the victim) is preposterous. So we need to pretend that men as a class are not dangerous to us, and that will stop them being dangerous to us? But when women drop their defences, it's not uncommon for men to attack them, and then whose fault is it? Hers, for dropping her defences. THAT is what normalises rape and sex crimes - the idea that if a woman or an older girl is defenceless / incapacitated, it's quite likely that a man will "take advantage". Thi sis a SOCIAL excuse that can be removed. This excuse is not given (so often) with very young or very old victims, or straight male ones. Then society condemns it. That is well worth pondering on.

Smoking hurts both the smoker and their family, yet look how difficult it has been to change that

Eh? It has been extremely successful. No smoking in any public building, no smoking in offices.

No the detention analogy means that you accuse all men of being rapists if you say " men are rapists" and that will not in my experiance do anything to reduce the likelihood that a man will offend.

Inthinknwe have the scale of incel problem because men read about it and glorify it. And the more material that is provided to them about their heros life, the easier it is for them to buy into the story. ( when we didn't know about trans hardly anyone was trans. Now it seems everyone is trans)

Yes I know the situation is wrong, that women's lives can be ruled by men's behaviour. What I am also saying is that we won't change that if we just say "men are rapists" and " men need to fix it" we need to get beyond that. I Amy be saying we need to work out how to manipulate men such that they start to do what we want and need and deserve. Eg make mysogeny a hate crime in all police areas not just a few. Discover better ways to resolve the " he said she said" problem of rape cases.

How do you get someone to change their mind or act differently? Is it perhaps through focussed flattery ? Isn't that how we get children to learn do you say..."what a good girl such neat writing " or "you really need to improve your writing, no girl is good at writing. "