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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Biology Isn't Bigotry

35 replies

TriciaF · 04/07/2018 18:24

To understand how the sex of any individual is determined we need to start at the formation of the gametes (eggs and sperm). Gametes are produced by a type of cell division known as meiosis, or reduction division. Every cell (except the gametes) in our bodies contains 23 pairs of chromosomes. One of each pair came from our mother and one from our father. There are 22 pairs of autosomes and one pair of sex chromosomes.

These chromosomes contain the 20,000 – 25,000 genes that control our appearance and physiology. Between the genes lie non-coding segments which form the bulk of the DNA and used to be thought of as mostly “junk”. However, it is now known that at least 80% of these non-coding segments have essential controlling roles (An integrated encyclopedia of DNA)

Meiosis separates the chromosome pairs – one chromosome from each pair is allocated to “intermediate cells” (primary oocytes and spermatocytes), but not before pieces of information have been swapped between the pairs (known as crossing over – see below). The primary oocytes and spermatocytes which contain a mix of chromosomes from our mother and father divide again. The result is that each gamete has half the genetic information found in the parent cells (23 chromosomes) and this set of information is different from other gametes, no two sperm are identical, neither are any two ova.

Meiosis

The stages of meiosis are shown in the image below. A detailed description of the process can be found here.

meiosis_yourgenomeImage from: www.yourgenome.org/facts/what-is-meiosis

In this greatly simplified version there is only one chromosome pair represented by the dark blue and light blue chromosomes. Humans have 23 pairs of chromosomes, the alignment of the pairs in metaphase I (Independent Assortment) is random. There are 8,324,608 possible combinations of the 23 chromosome pairs. This plus crossing over and random fertilization are key to variation and result in a unique combination of genes in each fertilized egg.

The process of meiosis is carefully controlled and coordinated to ensure that the gametes have just one copy of each of the chromosomes, but errors can happen (see Abnormalities in Gametogenesis).

Crossing Over

Each of the chromosomes in primary oocytes and spermatocytes is duplicated before meiosis begins – given the familiar “X” shape that we associate with chromosomes. These identical chromatids remain joined together throughout the first meiotic division (meiosis I), but are separated in the final stages of meiosis. When the homologous pairs come together in the Prophase I of meiosis, crossing over occurs between chromatids of the homologous pairs. Crossing over normally only occurs between equivalent sections of the chromosomes (shown in the diagram as A & a). Each chromosome contains dozens to thousands of different genes. The total possible combination of different versions of these genes (alleles) in humans is approximately 70,368,744,177,664. .

Crossing Over in the Sex Chromosomes

xx-male1Crossing over usually only occurs at 2 regions on the sex chromosomes, these are labelled PAR1 and PAR2 and are located at the ends of both the chromosomes. These regions do not contain any sex-specific chromosome. In very rare circumstances (1:20.000), the SRY region of the Y chromosome crosses over to the X, this may result in an males are phenotypically and psychosexually male 46,XX male syndrome is www.urology-textbook.com/46XX-males.html

Abnormalities in Gametogenesis

Normally, oogenesis produces ova with 22 autosomes and 1 X-chromosome, and spermatogenesis produces sperm with 22 autosomes and either an X-chromosome or Y-chromosome. Abnormalities in segregation of the chromosomes, known as nondisjunction, can result in gametes with either too many or too few of a particular chromosome. Embryos which have more than or fewer than 46 chromosomes are usually not viable, however there are exceptions such as Down’s syndrome in which individuals have 3 copies (trisomy) of chromosome 21; Patau syndrome, trisomy of chromosome 13; or Edwards syndrome; trisomy of chromosome 18. Nondisjunction of the sex chromosomes can also occur leading to anomalies such as:

Klinefelter syndrome – extra X chromosomes in males – i.e. XXY, XXXY, XXXXY, etc.
Turner syndrome – lacking one X chromosome in females – i.e. X0
Triple X syndrome – an extra X chromosome in females
XYY syndrome – an extra Y chromosome in males.
More information can be found here

Gamete Formation

In females, the total number of eggs ever to be produced are present in the newborn female. These are arrested at an early stage of meiosis I from foetal life through childhood until puberty, when surges in luteinizing hormone (LH) stimulate the resumption of meiosis. Following puberty, during each menstrual cycle, Follicle Stimulating Hormone (FSH) stimulates completion of meiosis I (usually in 1 but occasionally in more oocytes) the day before ovulation. The second part of meiosis which results in a mature ovum does not occur unless the ovum is fertilized. In females the meiotic divisions are uneven resulting in the production of a single ovum from each primary oocyte, and 1-3 polar bodies. In males, sperm production starts at puberty and continues throughout life. Division of each Spermatocyte will produce 4 spermatozoa (sperm).

gametogenesis

Fertilization restores the number of chromosomes to 46; 44 autosomes and either XX or XY. Hence the sex of the offspring is determined at fertilization. The zygote (fertilized egg) is totipotent (capable of forming any body cell) and is the progenitor of all of the cells in the off-springs body (plus the placenta and foetal membranes).

To summarise:

Sex is determined at fertilisation

99% human zygotes are XX or XY
The totipotent zygote is the progenitor of all cells in the individual
All ♂ cells have XY chromosomes
All ♀ cells have XX chromosomes
X cannot be changed to Y
Men cannot become women
If an egg is fertilised by an X-bearing chromosome, the offspring will be ♀.
If the sperm is Y-bearing, the offspring will be ♂.
This occurs >99% of the time. X & Y chromosomes are totally different & in no way interchangeable
“Primary sex determination is the determination of the gonads. In mammals, primary sex determination is strictly chromosomal and is not usually influenced by the environment. In most cases, the female is XX and the male is XY. Every individual must have at least one X chromosome. Since the female is XX, each of her eggs has a single X chromosome. The male, being XY, can generate two types of sperm: half bear the X chromosome, half the Y. If the egg receives another X chromosome from the sperm, the resulting individual is XX, forms ovaries, and is female; if the egg receives a Y chromosome from the sperm, the individual is XY, forms testes, and is male.” (From Developmental Biology by Scott Gilbert)

Detailed current information can be found here: embryology.med.unsw.edu.au/embryology/index.php/Fertilization

Biology Isn't Bigotry
Biology Isn't Bigotry
Biology Isn't Bigotry
OP posts:
soapboxqueen · 04/07/2018 18:32

Are all people with intersexed conditions either male or female with a dsd?

Are there any conditions where a person is truely a mixture?

TriciaF · 04/07/2018 18:50

Good question! The best way that I can answer that is to link you to my blog post on this topic: sciencefactnotfiction.wordpress.com/2018/07/03/is-sex-really-a-spectrum/
Hope this helps

OP posts:
YomTov · 04/07/2018 18:56

This unrolled Twitter thread is really useful regarding intersex conditions. threadreaderapp.com/thread/1013106135002476544.html , as well as TriciaF's blog post which is referenced in it.

soapboxqueen · 04/07/2018 19:02

Informative. Thanks

ReliefOfChaos · 04/07/2018 19:27

Are we happy with our rights and social groupings being decided by our genes? Thought we'd fought a couple of wars against the people who thought that was a good idea.

SomeDyke · 04/07/2018 19:33

What I find fascinating (not a biologist BTW), is things like chimerism (think lion with snake as tail and possible second goats head for classical chimera!). So, one famous example was a zebra finch where one half of its body was female, and one half male. You can tell in these finches because they have differently coloured feathers. And also they have different brain structures (males singing and all that!), so one half of its brain was female, one half was male:

I think in humans, chimerism results in things like two different DNA populations in the same individual. Which gives practical and ethical issues if you define 'one true parent' by DNA, or who gave birth, or who gave the egg. Alhtough I'll admt I've just read some utter rot:
"Which Half Is Mommy?: Tetragametic Chimerism and Trans-Subjectivity", which seeks to take these chimeric individuals and hitch them to the Judith-Butler style of debate. I quote: "human chimerism as posthuman drag" -- what uni gives these people degrees! There is reality (this genetic material and these mitochodria were injected into this egg, which was then implanted in this womb etc etc), physical objects acting like physical objects, leading to birth of baby, and then there is the pretty word-salad these people make of it (because they can? Because it impresses some people?)...............

The zebra finches did it all on their own! Smile

Biology Isn't Bigotry
soapboxqueen · 04/07/2018 19:55

Chaos I'm not sure what you are saying? Facts do not create social hierarchies. Humans do that by the value we attach to them.

EndoplasmicReticulum · 04/07/2018 20:12

I'm wondering if I'm going to be struggling to teach Biology in a couple of years, the way things seem to be going.

TriciaF · 04/07/2018 20:29

Indeed. I wonder that myself

OP posts:
EndoplasmicReticulum · 04/07/2018 20:38

About 15 years ago I was on a training course with a teacher whose school had just been taken over by a new academy chain, which was funded by a foundation with a particular interest in creationism. He was told he needed to present this as an alternative "theory" in his science lessons. I can see parallels here.

Snappity · 04/07/2018 20:44

Are we happy with our rights and social groupings being decided by our genes? Thought we'd fought a couple of wars against the people who thought that was a good idea.

This

AuntLydiasSteelyArmPitHair · 04/07/2018 20:45

Talking about biology struggling to be taught in a few years, I really never for a second thought that would happen. But a few days ago my extremely clever 13 year old son told me the tortoises were mating in the garden. I went out, and sure enough they were humping away but it was the female on top. I pointed out that it had to be the other way around, with the male on top to inseminate the female and his reply was "really? I thought they could choose what sex they were like us".

I had to sit them all down. My 18 year old has done a science A levels and agrees that factually/ biologically genes determine sex but that a person can be a female and have a penis. You could have knocked me down with a feather. He is autistic and sees things as very factual/black and white and this really threw me for a loop.

I have had to explain to the younger kids that trans is a form of body dysmorphia and while we want people to be happy, it would be fairer if we helped them to get treatment with a head doctor. I am glad that my kids don't care what clothes somebody wears etc but for them to be under the belief that we can actually change sex is just absurd!

FermatsTheorem · 04/07/2018 21:25

Are we happy with our rights and social groupings being decided by our genes? Thought we'd fought a couple of wars against the people who thought that was a good idea.

Which is precisely not the point of this thread.

As a PP pointed out, the differing values human beings have historically attached to people with different characteristics are just that, value judgements, not anything to do with biology.

That said, there are ways in which my human rights need additional protections because of biological facts about my sex. For instance - I need a right to return to my job after maternity leave. A man, who cannot get pregnant, does not need that right. I need the right to breast feed in public without being harassed. A man, who cannot breastfeed (barring artificially induces lactation using huge doses of drugs which probably do the baby no good at all, and don't actually induce lactation in sufficient quantities to feed said baby - pesky biological facts again), does not need that right.

Additionally, there's the issue of the weight of history. It should be enough simply to state that human rights apply to everyone. But we know that various groups of people have, historically, been excluded from the category of "people to whom human rights apply". Women, ethnic minorities, gay people, people from certain religions. Hence, as we correct these mistakes, we often need to include specific reminders in legislation - these groups get human rights too. Incidentally, I'm happy to include trans people in the group of people who need this "reminder" category too, because I'm sure they have been disadvantaged because of being trans.

(Transwomen still don't get women's rights, though, because women's rights are to do with redressing the balance and correcting the way we have been discriminated against because of our biology. Transmen, on the other hand, should be specifically included under the umbrella of women's rights, because there will be cases where they do need those protections, again because of their biology.)

MIdgebabe · 04/07/2018 21:52

Biologically , in most aspects of being human the sex genes have little to do with our capabilities. There is no evidence that sex related genes relate to mathematical capability so there is no reason to assume that one sex is better at math than the other. So genes do not matter in general and that is a big part of feminism to me

however, the only real reason women are discriminated against is because of their genes. Gereally the baby making aspect.. And that discrimination is only possible because female making genes give us lower physical stnength otherwise we would have hit that whole thing on the head back in Neolithic times. And now it is entrenched in society. So it is only things to do with genes that need special protections.

TriciaF · 05/07/2018 08:19

Thanks

OP posts:
ChattyLion · 05/07/2018 08:54

Agree that Biology isn’t Bigotry.
Can we also talk about Health information? And that proper health information is not bigotry?

May we also talk freely about what is a vagina and what is a penis. What these organs are and what they can normally do. The systems that they are part of that contribute to why they do what they do.

I’m confused by the NHS Choices pages on gender dysphoria:
www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/treatment/

if you scroll right down to the section about adults having surgery, it says: eg

The vagina is usually created and lined with skin from the penis, with tissue from the scrotum (the sack that holds the testes) used to create the labia. The urethra (urine tube) is shortened and repositioned. In some cases, a piece of bowel may be used during a vaginoplasty if hormone therapy has caused the penis and scrotum to shrink a significant amount.

It continues that:

The aim of this type of surgery is to create a functioning vagina with an acceptable appearance and retained sexual sensation.

It also says a ‘functioning penis’ can be made out of surgically altered women’s bodies.

Note: this is my use of quotation marks not that of the NHS.

There’s a obvious problem here. These shouldn’t be described as ‘functioning’ organs because the results of surgeries aren’t these organs nor do they function like these organs.

As an example, the only ‘functioning’ the described surgically-created ‘vagina’ is capable of that similar to an actual vagina, is capability of being penetrated.

Is that the only necessary ‘function’ of vaginas?

It’s all so reductive about what our sex organs are for and can do. It is also misleading to people about what they will get when they have these surgeries.

They don’t get a ‘fully functioning penis’ or a ‘fully functioning vagina’ yet this is how it is described. To adults. Why are adults not being told the truth?

Second point: in the section (same link as above) about children and young people. they mention Gnrh analogues (commonly known as ‘puberty blockers’) but not the dangers and the unknowns of taking these for kids.

They also don’t warn against buying these online for ‘self-medication’ which we know happens.

It’s not a small number of kids being prescribed these via the NHS. in 2017, 800, with 230 kids on puberty blockers under the age of 14. Some reportedly as young as 10.
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4743036/800-children-young-10-puberty-blockers.html

Not reaching normal sexual maturation is simply not a choice that a ten year old has the mental capacity to make.
The reversibility and safety of these drugs would appear to be highly overstated, and the risks highly understated.

And if you google it these drugs are easily available for purchase online. Where are the warnings on this page against doing that?

I think NHS health information must be given factually. What they describe isn’t factually correct and might mislead.

I can see they are trying to be sensitive to people’s feelings which is important but should not be done at the expense of confusing or misleading the people who might be reading this NHS health information, because they are considering treatment. and they want to know what the medical effects are of that treatment.

And I object to the reductive way that sex organs are presented by this account- that is a purely political presentation not a factual presentation.

A fully functioning vagina is not just a passive hole in the body that is there to be penetrated.

Also what the hell is a vagina with an ‘acceptable appearance’ such as they say these surgeries are needed to create. Acceptable to whom? What is an ‘unacceptable’ vagina? If anyone can now say that whatever they have in their pants is a vagina anyway, why is surgery even at issue? Why does our NHS give out the kind of information that says that?
What about being sensitive to the feelings of people who disagree with this account of human sex organs?

YomTov · 05/07/2018 09:07

Thanks for alerting me to all this, Chatty Lion - I hadn't thought to check the NHS site, despite having looked at all the schools advice etc. It's utterly shocking, for all the reasons you state. As for the notion of a 'functioning penis' - are they mad? Surely part of the 'function' is to become erect on sexual stimulus and no phalloplasty has ever provided anything of that ilk. And yes, they seem to imagine the only function of a vagina is to be penetrated. They omit the need to constantly dilate the hole created, else it will simply close up, as it has none of the functionality of an actual vagina.

So the pretence continues - and it's shocking that the NHS, at a time when it is cutting back on all sorts of medical procedures (e.g. leaving people in pain for much longer before offering hip replacements etc) is cheerfully offering all this nonsense with NO analysis of the cause of the problem for which any of this is the 'treatment'.

ChattyLion · 05/07/2018 09:28

Yom I find it utterly wrong. And risking of the trust we place in the NHS when they start credulously spouting stuff that could have been written by a TRA lobby group.

I also think there is an FOI to be had about how many NHS organisations have been on the end of lobbying from such organisations. This isn’t medical language and not the normal way that NHS info is presented.

Compare it with the body dysmorphia section of NHS choices for a stark contrast:
www.nhs.uk/conditions/body-dysmorphia/

ChattyLion · 05/07/2018 09:29

^Body dysmorphic disorder (BDD), or body dysmorphia, is a mental health condition where a person spends a lot of time worrying about flaws in their appearance. These flaws are often unnoticeable to others.
People of any age can have BDD, but it is most common in teenagers and young adults. It affects both men and women.
Having BDD does not mean you are vain or self-obsessed. It can be very upsetting and have a big impact on your life.^

YomTov · 05/07/2018 09:43

And of course, BDD is understood to be a mental health problem needing good support and therapy - not surgery and lifelong medication...

ChattyLion · 05/07/2018 09:58

Note: there is not a long section that follows about the types of surgeries you can have to get an ‘acceptable’ ‘fully functioning’ new face or whatever body part your dysmorphic perception sees as problematic. It’s all about talking. Why is it such a different approach to treatment? Genuine question.

Bespin · 05/07/2018 10:01

Wow I thought we had established this point already have you all forgotten this. Again no issue from me biology is not bigotry. Have fun

TriciaF · 05/07/2018 10:30

Totally and completely agree!

OP posts:
aaarrrggghhhh · 05/07/2018 11:04

I filled in a new patient form for NHS surgery yesterday.

Options for "sex" where male/female/transgender/other

This is for MEDICAL RECORDS.

Actual medical records. To both record what the individual needs and also more generally how resources need to be allocated.

This helps exactly no one.

ChattyLion · 05/07/2018 13:06

That is terrible. Could you write to the GP practice manager pointing that out and copy in the CCG? We need fact based health information to make the whole health system work and to meet the needs of everyone incl trans identifying people.