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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Important debate in Westminster this afternoon about sexual exploitation and prostitution websites and

61 replies

R0wantrees · 04/07/2018 14:11

THis was discussed on Woman's Hour this morning in an interview with Sarah Champion:
'As sex work moves online, are prostitution websites enabling a growth in exploitation and trafficking? Sarah Champion MP tells us why she believes UK legislation needs to be radically overhauled to keep pace with the changing face of prostitution'

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0b85m8r

"Let’s criminalise the men buying sex, and spare the women they exploit
Sophie Walker (WEP)
A new report lays bare the brutal realities of life for sex workers in Britain. The law must now change to protect them"

amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/21/british-sex-trade-women

Important debate in Westminster this afternoon about sexual exploitation and prostitution websites and
OP posts:
R0wantrees · 04/07/2018 14:21

context of opposition:

"Calls for "prostitution websites" to be banned in England and Wales will be made at a House of Commons debate.

A cross-party group of MPs says the owners of such sites "directly and knowingly" profit from sex-trafficking and wants the Home Office to intervene.

The group adds that a small number of sites "dominate the marketplace" and have named two in particular: Vivastreet and Adultwork.

But sex-worker-rights campaigners say the proposal would be "a disaster".

Three organisations - the Sex Worker Advocacy and Resistance Movement (Swarm), the English Collective of Prostitutes (ECP), and the xTalk collective - are planning a demonstration outside Parliament at the time of this Wednesday's debate to protest against the suggested law change."

www.bbc.com/news/technology-44685056

OP posts:
R0wantrees · 04/07/2018 14:48

NUS briefing:
'In 2016, NUS worked with ECP and SWARM to conduct the first piece of research of its kind into the experiences of student sex workers.
From the NUS Student Sex Work Survey, we found that student sex workers say they are not getting the help they need. Since then,
policy has passed through the NUS LGBT+1 Women’s2 and Trans3 Campaigns to continue our commitment of solidarity and support, and to further the work that we do for student sex workers.

Our survey shows, a large proportion of student sex workers (and perhaps sex workers in general) are from marginalised backgrounds or are vulnerable. 71% of respondents identified as women, and 17% identified as non-binary.
Over 70% of respondents identified as Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual or Queer. Over 55% described themselves as having a disability. And 14% were International Students (7% from within the EU, and 7% outside of the EU). (continues)

Decriminalization
NUS supports the movement for the decriminalisation of sex work. We believe that sex work is work, the same as any other form
of labour. Therefore sex workers should receive the same rights and employment. Currently in the UK, whilst sex work itself is not illegal,
there are a number of laws that criminalise the activities around it. These depend on region and nation, but throughout it is still highly
stigmatised, and many forms of engaging in sex work are socially and legally discriminated against.

We have even seen movement in wider politics, with the leader of the Labour Party coming out in support of decriminalisation in 2016."

Embedded link re Jeremy Corbyn's support

nusdigital.s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/document/documents/40809/Student_Sex_Worker_Briefing_2018.pdf?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAJKEA56ZWKFU6MHNQ&Expires=1530721626&Signature=EXUC0X8FYEQipNldEo9zOd2gxSg%3D

OP posts:
53rdWay · 04/07/2018 16:27

I see Jess Phillips has been reading out reviews from sex-buyer websites. Makes the point more powerfully than any NUS blather about prostitution being ‘the same as any other form of labour’ could.

BelleHathor · 04/07/2018 18:38

Well a good thing that Trump did was sign the FOSTA bill into law earlier this year leading to the end of backpages.com and similar sites. It was a revelation to see how quickly some subreddits were banned from reddit , where services were offered seeing as website owners were now liable. Funny how the sites could do that if they had no idea of what was being sold and likely knew that a lot of people were trafficked. Even worse were all the woke bros decrying the law as sex negative, instead of focusing on the women Sad

Brazenhussy0 · 04/07/2018 19:12

Ah yes, because removing the websites we advertise on (where we can leave feedback for clients and share information with each other) is totally going to make us safer Hmm

Again, this is moral ideology dressed up as 'protecting vulnerable women' whilst, in reality, throwing them under the big authoritarian bus.
Women like Champion would rather see us pushed back on to the streets or into the hands of pimps/brothel owners than let us have the ability to work more safely for ourselves and indoors, apparently.

LumpySpacedPrincess · 04/07/2018 20:02

I am sure she doesn't want that at all Brazen.

If you look at countries that have decriminalised sex work trafficking is up to suit the higher demand. Women in these countries are treated worse as misogyny increases. The only people making any money are the pimps and the violence against the women in the brothels is still high.

Brazenhussy0 · 04/07/2018 20:16

Her actions are certainly implying that she does, Lumpy. Removing our ability to advertise online would give us no other option than to return to the streets or to use the 'services' of pimps.
For a lot of us, websites like Adultwork let us screen clients more effectively and keep us significantly safer than we would otherwise be. They give us the option to work independently and, most importantly, keep us off street corners (where we are much more likely to be raped, assaulted or murdered.)

She is presumably not stupid and has one would hope listened to what active, current prostitutes have to say, so I can only conclude that she does want that outcome.

Decriminalisation is still the best model for us. Certainly superior to the Nordic Model at least .
If you have the time and are genuinely interested in the facts around decriminalisation, this report will be useful reading - prostitutescollective.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Online-Symposium-Report.pdf

LumpySpacedPrincess · 04/07/2018 20:37

Interesting link Brazen.

So many women and girls who end up in prostitution are unheard though. The Nordic model protects women, decriminalisation results in super sized brothels and increased trafficking, that's not good. We have to look at all women who end up in the sex trade, not just the ones who are happy with their choice.

BettyDuMonde · 04/07/2018 20:47

The reviews on punternet are terrifying:

nordicmodelnow.org/myths-about-prostitution/myth-punters-care-about-the-women-they-buy/

The problem with decriminalisation is it does nothing to protect the unseen victims of the sex buying trade - the oblivious wives and girlfriends of Johns.

Nordic model is best for all.

LumpySpacedPrincess · 04/07/2018 20:50

It's a pipeline that pumps women and girls in, that is only challenged by the Nordic model. It puts the needs of most women at the forefront.

Brazenhussy0 · 04/07/2018 20:52

The Nordic model protects women

  • not true

decriminalisation results in super sized brothels and increased trafficking

  • also not true (you may be thinking of the German super-brothels which have come about as a result of legalisation not decriminalisation.)

We have to look at all women who end up in the sex trade, not just the ones who are happy with their choice.

  • We consistently only ever look at the vulnerable women (addicts, alcoholics etc.) who end up in the sex industry. The rest of us are virtually unheard, mostly because we are plodding along just fine so never come into contact with charities or support workers. The majority of us are actually under-represented precisely because we are doing just fine as we are.

There should of course be support to ensure that women have a way to leave the sex industry, if they want to. But the sledgehammer approach being put forward by Champion will not help vulnerable women in any way. It'll just make things worse.
She essentially wants to rip the rug out from underneath the very people she is claiming she wants to help.

Brazenhussy0 · 04/07/2018 20:55

The reviews on punternet are terrifying:

Yes, they are (though punternet is actually long dead now, it has been replaced by others.)
These are the men I, personally, avoid seeing. If it wasn't for access to internet advertising and sex work forums, I would not know to avoid these men and may potentially end up stuck in a room with one of them for an hour.

The men who post on those forums do not represent all punters. They are a very specific subset.

Brazenhussy0 · 04/07/2018 20:57

The problem with decriminalisation is it does nothing to protect the unseen victims of the sex buying trade - the oblivious wives and girlfriends of Johns.

Wait... did you seriously just imply that it is more important to protect wives from their cheating husbands than it is to protect sex workers from being murdered?

Fuck me. Beating my head against a brick wall here eh?

BettyDuMonde · 04/07/2018 20:57

True, but in the same manner, you don’t represent everyone selling sex, you are from a specific subset.

BettyDuMonde · 04/07/2018 21:05

Nope, I didn’t imply anything, I said what I meant to say.

The fact that prostitutes are in danger of being murdered while earning a living is a pretty good argument against describing prostitutes as ‘sex workers’ mind you!

CardsforKittens · 05/07/2018 00:33

For me, this is one of the trickiest problems. I want to live in a world where all men treat all women with respect at all times. To my mind, this means men shouldn't expect to be able to buy sex from vulnerable women.

But we don't live in an ideal world. So what's the priority: keeping sex workers as safe as possible in a patriarchal society? Legislating in the hope that society will become less patriarchal as a result?

I'm almost completely unconvinced that any policy will make things significantly better for sex workers in the short term - because they're not causing the situation we've identified as a problem.

But I also don't want to believe that it doesn't matter what policy we adopt. I have friends who were sex workers. I wish I had more answers than questions.

LumpySpacedPrincess · 05/07/2018 06:36

But Brazen the reports from the super brothels from the women in them are horrifying, the reports from countrys where decriminalisation has been adopted are horrifying. Women are treated appallingly, trafficking increases, women still die and experience violence and have no way out.

Where the Nordic model is adopted violence goes down and trafficking decreases, pimps make less money, women are treated more respectfully.

I think there are a lot of people who want to keep women and girls in the pipeline.

Brazenhussy0 · 05/07/2018 19:11

But Brazen the reports from the super brothels... - Are entirely irrelevant to this discussion. As I already said, they came about as a result of legalisation not decriminalisation. Legalisation is not something anyone wants in the UK.

the reports from countrys where decriminalisation has been adopted are horrifying.

  • I'm sorry, but I actually laughed when I read that. You didn't even read a few pages of that report I posted upthread did you Grin You're beginning to seem a bit willfully ignorant here.

If an 84 page report is a bit too long for you, here's a decent wee opinion article from someone who actually works very closely with sex workers - metro.co.uk/2018/07/05/criminalising-online-platforms-puts-sex-workers-in-danger-mps-must-listen-to-the-people-they-are-putting-at-risk-7684816/

Where the Nordic model is adopted violence goes down and trafficking decreases, pimps make less money, women are treated more respectfully.

  • Erm, no, not quite Confused In fact, that's the exact opposite of what's been going on in the aftermath of the 'Nordic model' being implemented. What the Nordic Model does do, is push the industry underground where traffickers, pimps and violence can no longer be tracked or reported. Sex workers are too frightened to report incidents to the police for fear of losing their already unstable income and the few good clients who are still brave enough to visit them.
CardsforKittens · 05/07/2018 22:14

Brazen I promise I will read the 84 page report - possibly at the weekend when I have some time. I just have a quick question if that's ok... I've read that there are far fewer murders of sex workers in the Nordic model. I'm a bit sceptical. Is it because sex workers aren't recognised as sex workers because they're 'underground'?

LassWiADelicateAir · 05/07/2018 22:36

There should of course be support to ensure that women have a way to leave the sex industry, if they want to

I can't think of a single legitimate industry which necessitates a support network for those wanting to leave it.

Prostitution is not a job like any other job and never will be no matter how much you try to prettify it by calling it the "sex industry"

sillage · 05/07/2018 22:56

"What the Nordic Model does do, is push the industry underground where traffickers, pimps and violence can no longer be tracked or reported."

If they were being "tracked and reported" now they would be arrested for pimping and trafficking, but that's not what's happening.

I'm all right with the only men who can find prostitutes to pay for sex being men with connections to the criminal underground, that alone should cut down punter clientele by at least 80-90%.

zurichgnome · 06/07/2018 13:11

This reply has been deleted

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Brazenhussy0 · 06/07/2018 13:15

@CardsforKittens
Thank you for taking the time to engage and (if you have time) read the report upthread. Really, all sex workers want is to be heard and to have a say in our own safety and livelihoods, so it’s appreciated when some people do take the time to do the reading and keep an open mind.

As for murder rates, it’s a difficult issue. There haven’t been any in depth studies done on the effects of the Nordic model on sex worker murder rates so there’s been a bit of statistical cherry picking on both sides of the debate.
Looking at murder rates is complex and problematic, the reasons for that being outlined in this review by Professor Sanders et.al. at the University of Leicester:
www2.le.ac.uk/departments/criminology/people/teela-sanders/BriefingPaperTheUseofSexWorkerHomicideStatsinCampaigning.pdf

In general, statistics around sex work are problematic and notoriously difficult to pin down because of the covert nature of the work we do. Most often, statistics only relate to street workers (who are a tiny minority of sex workers) and ignore the very large majority of indoor workers.
This is especially difficult when it comes to Swedish statistics. The Swedish have a desire to ensure the Nordic model appears a success on the global stage so their statistics are often insufficient at best or intentionally misleading at worst (and making sense of them tends to require an ability to understand Swedish!)
Here’s an example of that happening with trafficking statistics:
feministire.com/2011/10/04/swedish-police-stats-show-more-not-less-prostitution-and-trafficking/amp/

The Home Affairs Committee acknowledged the difficulties with statistics in their 2017 report. The conclusion was basically that there is not enough reliable information to base changing our laws on and we should wait to see how things pan out in Ireland with the Nordic Model.
(If you’re going to pick just one of my links to read, this should be the one.):
publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201617/cmselect/cmhaff/26/26.pdf

It's 2018 now, and things are not looking very good for Irish sex workers. Violence towards sex workers has increased by anywhere from 40-60% (depending on which set of statistics you look at.):
www.newstatesman.com/politics/feminism/2018/03/does-nordic-model-work-what-happened-when-ireland-criminalised-buying-sex?amp

The reason for this is thought to be because the Nordic model works to increase stigma towards sex workers. With more stigma we become ‘othered’, seen as lower beings who are disposable, and who do not have the agency or rights of other women. This narrative creates a situation where we’re viewed as fair game for robberies, assault, rape, etc.

This is a fantastic article by Dr. Kate Lister (March 2018), where she discusses this in some depth:
inews.co.uk/inews-lifestyle/women/as-a-sex-historian-this-is-what-i-want-you-to-know-about-the-buying-and-selling-of-sex/

I’ll include an extract, for those who are unwilling to read my many, many links! I do thank you, if you’ve taken the time to read this whole post.

-----------------------

Walker celebrates the first anniversary of Ireland’s Sex Buyer’s Laws, the act that criminalises the purchase of sexual services, but not the selling. But when you actually ask sex workers and sex worker rights groups how they feel about the Nordic model, it’s hard to understand what Walker thinks is worth celebrating. In the year since Ireland brought in the Nordic model there has been a 54% increase in crime against sex workers reported to National Ugly Mugs Ireland, and violent crime is up by 77%. The Sex Workers Alliance Ireland (SWAI) strongly opposed the introduction of this law and rightly warned that it would lead to increased violence against sex workers. Walker claims she finds it ‘extraordinary that the purchase of a woman’s body for sex is legal in the UK’. I find it extraordinary that anyone would think a system resulting in a 77% increase in violent crime against the very people it claims to protect, is worthy of celebration.

The Nordic model does not work because by criminalising the client, you in turn criminalise the sex worker. How would you fair if the source of your income was suddenly criminalised? Research from the countries that have adopted the Nordic model shows again and again that ‘end demand’ legislation only place sex workers at significantly greater risk of harm. Criminalising clients may reduce demand from those not wishing to commit a crime, but it does not deter those who wish to hurt sex workers. Once demand has been reduced, competition for less desirable clients increases among sex workers, leading to an increase in risky, dangerous behaviour, such as unprotected sex, working in isolation or in deserted areas. As clients become less willing to directly approach sex workers, Sweden and Norway saw the use of third party negotiators (pimps and madams) increase dramatically.

As Walker’s article makes abundantly clear, the Nordic Model is simply a staging post on the road to abolition. It is part of a wider narrative that refuses to see the sex worker as anything other than a victim to be rescued. Despite excellent work done by sex worker rights groups this ‘sex-work saviour complex’ continues to dominate and shape modern narratives surrounding sex workers. By constructing the sex worker as a victim, she is subtly disempowered, stripped of her own agency, and tacitly presented as inferior. Whilst allowing the saviour space to validate their own moral agenda, it reinforces social hierarchy, and stigmatises the ‘rescued’.

Stigma kills

One of the mantras of the sex worker rights movement is ‘Stigma Kills, and the Nordic model directly re-stigmatises sex workers by moralising that selling and buying sexual services is wrong. In Sweden, this stigma is actually viewed as a welcome effect of the Nordic model as it may help put off potential clients, despite the fact that stigma places sex workers at significantly greater risks of violence (as seen in Ireland over the last year). In 2000, John Lowman identified a ‘discourse of disposability’ in media reports on sex workers, by analysing media descriptions of efforts to abolish sex work by politicians, police and local residents. Lowman linked this with a sharp increase in the murders of street sex workers in British Columbia after 1980. He argues that, ‘It appears that the discourse on prostitution of the early 1980s was dominated by demands to get rid of prostitutes from the streets, creating a social milieu in which violence against prostitutes could flourish. This is how stigma works. Once the sex worker is stigmatised as disposable, a message formed, shaped and deployed in debates around abolition, this discourse then influences how sex workers are treated. And they are not treated well under the Nordic model.

Why aren’t we listening to sex workers?

Why aren’t we listening to the sex workers themselves? Every sex worker rights organisation fights the Nordic model and seeks full discrimination, because it keeps people safe. In a survey of over 200 sex workers, researchers from the University of Northumbria found that 96.2% of respondents did not think people should be criminalised for purchasing sex.

The Nordic model and its supporters tacitly presents sex workers as degenerate, disposable victims in need of rescue. The evidence proves that criminalising clients causes significant harm to those in the sex industry. A central tenet of feminism is bodily autonomy, sexual agency, the right to say yes and the right to say no, and to have that respected. How can you seriously call yourself a feminist if you insist on denying those same rights to your sister sex workers?

LassWiADelicateAir · 06/07/2018 13:32

The reason for this is thought to be because the Nordic model works to increase stigma towards sex workers. With more stigma we become ‘othered’, seen as lower beings who are disposable, and who do not have the agency or rights of other women. This narrative creates a situation where we’re viewed as fair game for robberies, assault, rape, etc

You are fooling yourself if you think calling yourself a "sex worker" rather than a prostitute gives you some sort of status; particularly amongst the men who pay to masturbate in you.

I want society to view punters as the scum they truly are.

DisturblinglyOrangeScrambleEgg · 06/07/2018 13:43

Therefore sex workers should receive the same rights and employment

Absolutely.

Personal and public liability insurance, correct disposal of articles contaminated with body fluids, and relevant H&S safety regulations followed around contact with them. Then it's just a job.

Until you have these things, you're fooling yourself if you think it's work like any other. No other job demands that you put yourself at risk of life altering illness and pregnancy multiple times a day.