Important debate in Westminster this afternoon about sexual exploitation and prostitution websites and

[R0wantrees]

THis was discussed on Woman's Hour this morning in an interview with Sarah Champion:
'As sex work moves online, are prostitution websites enabling a growth in exploitation and trafficking? Sarah Champion MP tells us why she believes UK legislation needs to be radically overhauled to keep pace with the changing face of prostitution'

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0b85m8r

"Let’s criminalise the men buying sex, and spare the women they exploit
Sophie Walker (WEP)
A new report lays bare the brutal realities of life for sex workers in Britain. The law must now change to protect them"

amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/21/british-sex-trade-women

and the few good clients who are still brave enough to visit them.

What heros. Paying women to endanger themselves so they can masterbate into them. Perhaps we could get them some kind of certificate in appreciation, or, and I'm just thinking here, if they're such good guys, you could just have sex with them, and switch to a normal job that doesn't endanger your life and continue to support the commodification of women's bodies to earn money?

Personal and public liability insurance, correct disposal of articles contaminated with body fluids, and relevant H&S safety regulations followed around contact with them. Then it's just a job.

This as a basic.

These are the HSE guidelines for dealing with bodily fluids, admittedly for offshore use, but the ones where I work are pretty much the same and these form the basis for protocols all over. Especially when dealing with high risk bodily fluids like blood, semen etc.

the men who pay to masturbate in you.

What heros. Paying women to endanger themselves so they can masterbate into them.

That 'othering' and stigma I was talking about in my rather lengthy post? This is a good example of it.
I'm having consensual sex in exchange for payment. A lot of my clients enjoy seeing me experience pleasure, but I realise that is likely to fall on deaf ears.

Regardless, whether you find sex work morally repugnant is up to you. I don't, and have no moral issue with what I do. My primary concern is my (and other sex worker's) safety.

You are fooling yourself if you think calling yourself a "sex worker" rather than a prostitute gives you some sort of status

That seems particularly venomous, Lass. I call myself a sex worker because the word 'prostitute' has a lot of societal baggage attached to it and is generally used by people who want to dehumanise us.

LassWiADelicateAir
I want society to view punters as the scum they truly are.
I have similar desires, which arose in response to violence experienced by those of my friends who have been sex workers. But I don't want society to view sex workers as scum because some of them are my friends.

Brazenhussy0 Thank you so much for the links - I will read them this afternoon. I find it all really complex and I struggle to articulate a coherent position beyond 'sex work, as it currently manifests, is a reflection of patriarchal abuse of power in which many women are harmed'. But how to reduce harm is unclear, and plenty of people would disagree with me about the nature of sex work. So I'll keep reading!

See when you read things back and realise that wasn't what you meant to convey?

When I said 'But I don't want society to view sex workers as scum because some of them are my friends' I should have indicated that having friends who are sex workers is by no means the only reason I don't want society to see them as scum. Sorry that wasn't clear.

if they're such good guys, you could just have sex with them, and switch to a normal job that doesn't endanger your life and continue to support the commodification of women's bodies to earn money?

This is a slightly insulting question. My clients are clients, not people I would be intimate with for free. This is my job and entirely different from my own personal sex life. I appreciate that can be difficult to understand from the outside.

Tell you what, if you can find me another job where I can earn £1,000+ a week working 3.5 days per week with no qualifications then I’ll hang up my stockings today.
I enjoy the flexibility of being self-employed, the income, meeting new people, the minimal hours, the physical activity, the feeling of sexual liberation.
Every sex worker has her own reasons for choosing sex work. It’s not as simple as ‘why don’t you just find another job?’

I don’t see what I do as commodification of my body. To me, I’m selling a service. My body is still mine and I choose what I do with it and when.

But this is entirely off topic from the discussion at hand… How do you feel about the safety of sex workers and online advertising?

Tell you what, if you can find me another job where I can earn £1,000+ a week working 3.5 days per week with no qualifications then I’ll hang up my stockings today.

Again, do you follow the H&S guidelines on contact with body fluids, and the disposal of equipment contaminated by them?

Do you have public liability insurance? Have you performed risk assessments as required?

No? Then that's the reason you're earning that amount money, because you're not treating it like an actual job, you're not following the law. If any other self-employed person said - it's fine, I'll do your dental work for you for half the price, because I don't pay for insurance or use any safety equipment, which gives me lower overheads, then would you think that was OK? Would you think that dentist is acceptable?

How do you feel about the safety of sex workers and online advertising?

I don't feel that 'sex work' is safe. I don't feel that we should allow online advertising of 'services' that break every H&S regulation in place to protect both workers and 'customers' I think that that applies to cleaners, dentists, doctors, chefs, masseurs and nail technicians, and if prostitution is to be a legitimate profession, it has to apply to prostitutes too.

And if you can't do the job whilst complying, then no, I don't think it's a safe job, and we should do what we can to block advertising.

That seems particularly venomous, Lass. I call myself a sex worker because the word 'prostitute' has a lot of societal baggage attached to it and is generally used by people who want to dehumanise us

The societal baggage is there because what you and your punters do is damaging to society as a whole and women in particular. I don't accept the prettifying up by weaselly terms such as "sex worker"- which includes pimps and brothel keepers.

And before you start- this has nothing to do with sex. I don't care less what consenting adults do for genuinely fun sex.

But I don't want society to view sex workers as scum because some of them are my friends

I am assuming your "sex worker" friends aren't pimps or madams?

I'm sure black people working as minstrels didn't want their jobs abolished either but it was necessary for the greater good.

@DisturblinglyOrangeScrambleEgg

So… is that a no then?

Seriously though, this is a thread about Sarah Champion proposing to ban sex work advertising websites and the impacts of that (along with criminalising the purchase of sex in general.)
I’m not entirely sure what relevance Health and Safety has to that discussion, other than to derail and find another way to take a pop at sex work.

But, seeing as it’s an issue you obviously care about, I do think Health and Safety would become more relevant if legalisation were implemented. However, neither side of the debate wants to see sex work fully legalised in the UK.
Under decriminalisation, H&S may also become more relevant, but I imagine in any case the rules around bodily fluids would have to be adapted to suit the industry as it’s obviously unworkable given the nature of the work we do.

If I were to incur increased expenses due to any requirement for insurance etc. I would increase my rates accordingly so that my income did not suffer (thus still earning my weekly targets on the same hours I work currently.) Other sex workers would likely do the same.

As for banning online advertising, it will reduce the safety of sex workers by preventing us from screening our clients effectively, as I already said.
I’m more at risk of being beaten or robbed than I am of being infected by bodily fluids (for what it’s worth, sex workers have lower incidence of HIV than the general population… make of that what you will.)

The societal baggage is there because what you and your punters do is damaging to society as a whole

It really isn't. We meet up, they pay me, we have lots of (or even just a little) sex, have a chat and maybe a coffee, he sticks his clothes on then leaves. It's sex between two consenting adults and really doesn't have anything to do with anyone else.

I get the argument for criminalising sex work because it feeds into a pornified culture which views women as objects for purchase - I do get that point of view.
However, that point of view comes from a place of not experiencing or understanding what goes on in the room during a booking with an independent escort.
Most of us sell 'The Girlfriend Experience' - punters these days don't just want a quick shag with any female shaped body they can afford, they want a connection, a bit of intimacy, a cuddle and a chat.
It's very different from the street scene, or the BDSM scene, or the 'Porn Star Experience' scene.

Sex workers (and punters) are a very diverse group so it's entirely wrong to make sweeping generalisations about any impacts our work has on society as a whole.

Oh, then there's the male escorts of course (always forget about them!) The gay sex workers, the trans sex workers, the sex workers who service couples...

Are we all harming society?

Do you pay tax and NI contributions, Brazen?

I don’t use the term ‘sex workers’ because it’s a massive umbrella term and some ‘sex work’ is legal. Protitiution is a more specific term.

I was a telephone sex chat line operator back in the day, I worked from a call centre as a PAYE employee. I’ve also participated in various other ‘sex industry’ type stuff, some of which was clearly ‘a job like any other’ (a women’s sex toy shop) and some of which was exploitative and dangerous (a Mayfair Hostess Bar).

I’ve come out the other side with the understanding that while it can be empowering for an individual woman, it is damaging for women as a political class and for vulnerable women, it is absolutely fucking awful.

I very much support Champion’s position on this.

So you currently operate without any relevant insurance, I'm guessing you don't pay business rates on your property (if it would even be allowed under the terms of the lease/deeds - many places wouldn't allow you to run a business where customers visit the property), you don't correctly dispose of clinical waste, or follow H&S procedures yourself, but you think that you should be allowed to advertise?

Irrespective of my feelings on the effects on society, no, I don't agree you should be allowed to advertise a service that doesn't even meet basic business operating requirements, before we even get to the actual nature of the business.

Lass
I am assuming your "sex worker" friends aren't pimps or madams?
That's right. And I think it's unreasonable to hold them responsible for gender or sex inequality because I think it's actually the other way around: prostitution and other forms of sex work are a symptom of inequality rather than a cause.

Brazenhussy0
I thought the piece by Teela Sanders was particularly useful - I'm always a bit sceptical about interpreting statistics around sex work and she makes a lot of good points about context. I'm halfway through the long report - it's really interesting and helpful in clarifying my thinking; thanks again!

Do you pay tax and NI contributions, Brazen?

I do. HMRC appear to view sex work as a legitimate job, even if some MN users don't.

Disturbingly, sex work in the UK is not fully legalised, so none of what you're saying here as any relevance at all. We're not a regulated industry.

prostitution and other forms of sex work are a symptom of inequality rather than a cause.

Bang on the money there Cards. And this was the point I was trying to make to Disturbingly earlier when I suggested finding a different job for me that matches my current flexible hours and decent pay.

If sex workers (and women in general) had other options, the sex industry would naturally shrink.

I think that’s the exact point Orange is making though? That advertising a non-regulated industry (whatever that industry does) shouldn’t be legal.

Sole traders/freelancers don’t have to specify how each payment was earned, so that part is irrelevant to the DWP.
Maybe it shouldn’t be?
Although it would be pretty boring to check the paperwork on most freelancers, I would imagine!

I do. HMRC appear to view sex work as a legitimate job, even if some MN users don't

HMRC will take tax off income which is declared. It is not illegal to be a prostitute in the UK. It is illegal to solicit, pimp or keep a brothel.

I hope you are not running your "business" out of a property which is let to you as you make the landlord run the risk of committing an offence by accepting rent from you.

As for societal damage- yes you contribute to making the idea that it is acceptable to buy another person as a masturbatory aid. Your "happy hooker" tales are dangerous to anyone naive enough to be taken in by them.

you contribute to making the idea that it is acceptable to buy another person as a masturbatory aid.

Lass - I'm not sure why your attitude towards me is so hostile? I've already explained that my bookings with clients are about more than the client having an orgasm, and referring to sex workers as 'masturbatory aids' is deeply insulting.

You do not work in the sex industry, you have no experience of selling sex, or dealing with punters and you are (yet again) not listening to what an active sex worker with ~10 years of working in the industry is telling you.

Please at least make an attempt at informing yourself. I've provided a huge amount of information and links to some very thoughtful articles yet you appear completely unwilling to give any of it even the smallest glance. Why?

I am not particularly interested in your hurt feelings. You are colluding in oppression and even painting it as desirable and worthwhile.

Many posters on this part of the forum are upset about self ID , promotion of trans rights. I'm not particularly.

I think the normalisation of pornography and prostitution is far more damaging to women and society.

I also think happy hookers like you boasting about the £1000s you make every week are a part of the problem. Maybe not quite as bad as pimps , but still part of the problem.