Alternative Definitions of 'Woman'?

[Dragoncake]

Do you disagree with the definition of 'woman' as 'adult human female'?

If you disagree, what is your own definition of the word?

A woman is....what exactly?

Is there even a definition? Or is 'woman' simply indefinable in your view?

On the 'A Woman is an Adult Human Female' thread I asked those who disagree to provide their alternative definition of the word.

Several people engaged, but nobody seemed able to do this.

If you have one, please post your alternative definition here. Thanks.

If you can't define your terms; you can't demand legislation and social policy because they will be unworkable and default to extant power structures - in this case, the patriarchal power structures which benefit males. This is why extremist transactivism is a male supremacist political movement.

This.

DadJoke - so you don't think people's 'gender identity' is in any way formed by the context of the particular set of gender stereotypes (and degree of enforcement of them ) that they experience? That 'gender identity' is all nature, no nurture?

That is what I take issue with. I'm not 'conflating', I think they're inextricably linked.

All women are oppressed as a result of their gender identity

You are including biological males in your definition of women. This is an ideological belief.

Ereshkigal

Gender identity. The first thing to get out of the way is the use of the word "identify" which sounds like its an act of choice. It's an identity like an identity card - it describes who you are. In the same way that a person "feels" gay, even if they don't act on it, gender identity is an inherent state.

That's an ideological belief not a fact. I don't have a gender identity. I am a woman. Am I "agender"?

We are discussing definitions of "woman." In this model, your gender and the body typically associated with it match, and because of that match, there is no cognitive dissonance, so your gender identity is "woman." It's not a feeling any more than sexuality is. While there are asexual people, everyone has a sexuality. Because you can't see it, doesn't mean it's not real.

I don't accept it and I will never accept it, no matter how many appeals to female socialisation are made and no matter how many pomo-addled screeds get written and no matter how many threads full of circular non-definitions appear hereabouts. That's it. End of.

This in 95 foot high flashing neon letters.

Dad : say for Erish as example, or me, the body doesn't match the gender identity because the body is not 'woman', according to you.

Ereshkigal It's not my intention to talk over women. I am disagreeing with people, and providing answers to questions on this topic, and to people who have engaged with me. Most of the women I know professionally don't share the views expressed here; they accept the more modern definition of woman, and would consider much of what's said here horribly transphobic. I would much rather engage.

That said, I'll take your point, I will confine my responses to people who directly address me (which I had thought I was doing).

your gender identity is "woman"

No. You are assuming based on your ideological belief system. I'm afraid I don't subscribe to it, so I don't think I have a "gender identity". I am just a woman who knows she is a woman and is treated in a certain way by society due to sex role stereotypes.

dad say for Erish as example, or me, the body doesn't match the gender identity because the body is not 'woman', according to you.

I use "female" to describe sex, and "women" for gender. Usually women are female, and in common parlance I don't have an issue with people conflating the two, though it might be considered a bit transphobic.

Ereshkigal

Do you think transwomen who "pass" suffer as a result of structural sexism? I think they do.

In this model, your gender and the body typically associated with it match, and because of that match,

She literally just said she doesnt have a gender

Most of the women I know professionally don't share the views expressed here; they accept the more modern definition of woman

You'll forgive me if I don't think you've conducted a particularly comprehensive survey in your obvious bubble. There is no "more modern definition of woman". Some people push ill thought through virtue signalling pomo nonsense which falls apart when asked to provide a non circular definition.

Ok according to trans ideology. The body is not woman or man, so the gender identity can't match the body. Undeniable under trans ideology.

I think the conflation of the expectations based on gender with gender indentity itself is at the heart of what the hurt and anger felt here is

Fine then, please define Gender Identity DadJoke
Then please define why someone's Gender Identity should be defined as Woman.

Do you think transwomen who "pass" suffer as a result of structural sexism? I think they do.

The number is quite small. It's possible for any particularly feminine looking man to be mistaken for a woman and they might suffer misplaced sexism too. But most biological males in the U.K. are not going to be mistaken for women.

Nice of you to take time out of your day to mansplain sexism to us benighted horribly transphobic women though.

ErrolTheDragon

so you don't think people's 'gender identity' is in any way formed by the context of the particular set of gender stereotypes (and degree of enforcement of them ) that they experience? That 'gender identity' is all nature, no nurture?

That is what I take issue with. I'm not 'conflating', I think they're inextricably linked.

Hmm. I think that gender identity, like sexuality, is innate. However, people can suffer from internal struggles as a result of gender oppression, in much the same way as homophobia can cause people to reject or question their own sexuality. Conversely, there is pressure on non-gender-conforming children by some parents to change their gender identity, when in fact they just wish to express themselves outside of societal expectations.

If we confine ourselves to people who have dysphoria, do you think that's innate or cultural? If you acknowledge it's innate, can you accept that gender identity might be innate?

ALittleBitofVitriol

I defined gender identity up-thread.

Ereshkigal

You keep engaging with me, then saying I am mansplaining. I am very happy to stop engaging with you, but when you address me, I assume you want a response. Ideally, let me know.

Rufustheyawningreindeer

I made it clear that "in this model" she would be defined as having a gender identity, and that's what we are discussing.

If someone denies they have a sexuality, do they still have a sexuality?

they accept the more modern definition of woman

'more modern definition of woman?' 😂What definition is that then?

Is there a 'more modern definition of man'? Has anyone told men about this?!

I am pointing out that you might want to give some thought to what you are doing, not saying I want to leave it unchallenged.

Dad: you fail to see the fatal flaw, that there is nothing female or male to ascribe to any gender identity if the body is not female or male.

Is anorexia innate fatness?

Hmm. I think that gender identity, like sexuality, is innate.

So you think that gender identity is innate, but unless your gender identity doesn't match your physical body, you will never know about that innate gender identity?

You can't compare it to sexuality. I know I'm straight because Im attracted to blokes and that is the definition of straight.

I know I'm a woman because I have a female body and that is the definition of woman.

whats the difference between personality and gender identity?