Let's all pretend that transwomen are women

[Bi11yOneMate]

Because otherwise some people's fragile sense of self will break.
That's the bottom line isn't it?

And they want to be treated as if they are women. But we are pretending they really ARE women so it can't be AS IF they are women.

When actually most women just want to be treated like a human. With the same courtesies and respect and rights as the other half of the population. There are a few situations where, due to biology, women need special provisions - space/facilities/dignity in dealing with menstruation, breastfeeding, childbirth.
Transwomen don't need that, will not have spent teen years anticipating or learning to deal with that. And unless they are really out of touch with reality can never expect to. And therefore is it any surprise that women may feel uncomfortable with transwomen around when dealing with the specifics of biology - menstruation/breastfeeding/childbirth/menopause.

Now if the transwomen is very low key and not directly involved in care - in the "just want to pee and leave" camp, then a lot of women don't make a fuss.
But lots still care.

Why is that so hard?

What are you wanting from this?

A discussion. For people to agree or disagree and say why. This is a chat board after all.

I'm willing to treat male people who identify as women as women are treated under male supremacy if that is what they really want (even though I find that ethically challenging because I don't want to treat anyone inhumanely or as inferior, or be drawn into anyone's sub fetish) but I'm not willing to pretend they actually are women, lose my rights as a woman, collude in breaking other women's boundaries, etc.

But as I said, if some male people want me to treat them as women are treated, then sure I guess I can patronise and ignore them, put no value on their work and opinions, assume they are incapable of leading anything, judge them constantly on how they look and dress, expect them to do all the wifework and shitwork, support their having less pay and next to no political representation, ignore violence against them or claim they bring it on themselves because of how they nag/dress etc, call them by their dads/husbands surname and mis-title them regularly, and the rest of it. I can do it, but I'd rather not.

I don't think they have any real idea what they are actually demanding, but whatever.

I will treat all humans as humans because I am nice like that. i will treat all tables as tables because I do like a good table.
I will treat some chairs as tables too because well the chair next tome is a perfect height for my coffee cup.
But is that chair really a table? it has a coffee cup on it and magazines.
it is a chair passing as a table? Or is there something intrinsically table/chair about it ?
Does language matter? Are my hairy toes infact intrinsically hobbit? Are we all just one anyway?
Where is my coffee? is it on the table or the chair? the object that has my coffee cup on it ?

Is treating someone 'as if' they are a woman basically letting down your guard like you do when the person coming into your home, while you are alone, to read your meter is female and you don't brace yourself and appraise the nearest weapon to grab in case they attack you? That kind of thing?

JoanSummers - exactly. Unless you 100% pass as female you are never going to experience that all too familiar "second class" thing - like being the most experienced person present on "x" topic, but having your contribution ignored, but repeated by s male colleague 5 minutes later to much acclaim. And if you try to day you said it first it is seen as petty. Etc.
Personally treating someone as if they were female might mean having a laugh over your birth injuries or asking if anyone has tampon.as you've been caught out. That sort of thing. Or maybe not worrying so much about your toddler being "discreet" while breastfeeding.

Trans women are trans women. I am in favour of figuring out the best way forward for trans rights, but not at the expense of the definitions of man and woman. However, I feel I am being asked to pretend the differences between those born male and those born female don't exist when I hear the mantra "trans women are women."
Let's be proud of the "trans" part, not erase it. Can natal females become "trans women"? If the answer is no, then the two groups clearly aren't exactly the same, even under trans ideology.

‘The Treachery of Images’ by Rene Magritte.

Can natal females become "trans women"? If the answer is no, then the two groups clearly aren't exactly the same, even under trans ideology.

heresyandwitchcraft
There in lies the problem n'est-ce pas?

We have words with meaning if we change the meaning then the word changes and you need a new word to take its place.. If you look at the word apple it meant fruit.

So the thing is, most of us here on the feminist boards quite like the word woman to mean female and dont want to change to cis.....

But if someone can come up with something with a nice fruity ring maybe that would be the way forward? NAH to cis maybe yes to amazing goddess to walk the earth,,,,,,,,,

There are no words for the half of the human population that are not males, men, or trans. The men decided they wanted the words woman and female to describe themselves and the government agreed.
All that is left to do now is find a name for the half of the populace that are not men or trans, and decide if they are entitled to any rights at all.

thebewilderness
OHHH lets have a committee on renaming maybe the 49.6 percent?

let's All pretend that trans women are women

Said the rabbit to Alice.........,.

Sorry I'm a woman, a woman who's over 40, been through numerous miscarriages, ivf, rape, domestic violence, misogyny etc.

I could pretend. But I won't. Why should I?

The entire TWAW thing is a lie, pure and simple. If they really believed that, they would 'assimilate into womanhood' and fight for women's rights. But nooooo. It's all about 'trans rights' and NOT 'women's rights' at all is it?

They don't fight for 'trans spaces' (like toilets/changing rooms) they want women's spaces.

They actually do not want to be 'treated like women' at all, which is why they cling to 'trans woman', to point out the rather obvious 'not female born' part.

Not really sure why I should pretend that TWAW, when they don't even believe that themselves.

All that is left to do now is find a name for the half of the populace that are not men or trans

At which point those identifying as women would decide they no longer wanted to be called that & appropriate the new term instead.

No, I won’t pretend. I tried pretending that TWAW to be polite and look where it’s got us. You give the transactivists an inch and they take a mile as you cannot ever appease them enough.

Transwomen are transwomen and that is OK. I will not debase myself and my sex and lie and say that individuals with XY chromosomes, facial hair, testosterone and everything else that comes with being male, are women. Not now or ever again.

Trans women are trans women. I will respect them. I will not deliberately misgender, delight in telling them they are men, deny that being trans is real. BUT I will not pretend that the needs of trans women are entirely the same as those of natal women. I will not pretend that demanding separate spaces for natal women is simply transphobia or bigotry. I will not pretend that trans women actually are natal women.

If a transwoman is a woman but I am not a transwoman, what am I?

I am nothing.

This is how I feel, and what my lived experience is. I have been replaced. I am valueless.

It's not about whether I can pretend or not.
Pretending has harmed me.

I need to look after my own mental health.

I won't be forced to lie.

That's the bottom line.

Lying about this will harm me, harm my mental health, harm the material reality of life for all women and girls/

I won't be forced to lie.

For me it comes down to one simple question.

If an abused women, who has requested woman only care, does not want to be faced with a male bodied person is she a bigot?

If TWAW is fact, then she must be and that is unacceptable to me.

Therefore I believe that trans women are trans women and there are spaces (and jobs) they must accept are out of bounds for them.

To answer the OP, let's not.

I am quite prepared, in my daily life, to treat transpeople as the sex they identify with, to use the names and pronouns they prefer. I think they should have all the rights that everyone else has, and live lives free from prejudice, persecution and hassle. In almost all circumstances it doesn't matter. But there are are some very specific circumstances where it does, and we have somehow to come to an accommodation in those specific circumstances. And that's what we need to be talking about. And I actually think the vast majority of transpeople would agree with me.

If you remove a stallion's penis it does not become a mare. If you attach udders to a bull it does not become a heifer. I will use the name someone gives me, whether it be Bob, Margret or Pixxie Lullabelle Moonstruck and I will use personal pronouns to be polite, but I will not deny reality. The truth can only be inflammatory if we are being compelled to lie.

And I actually think the vast majority of transpeople would agree with me

So do I Bertrand.

And I agree with you too.