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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Nic Williams... R4

66 replies

BlackeyedSusan · 03/07/2018 07:10

on now...

OP posts:
lottiegarbanzo · 03/07/2018 10:21

Hmm, as a 'casual visitor', I wondered what the view would be here.

I thought the presenter was far better than either interviewee and sounded like he was trying to keep the conversation going by reminding them of key points they might want to mention. It was noticeable that they were interviewed in sequence, not in the usual back and forth style - as if they couldn't be in the same room together or the expectation was they'd get fighty. Very, very unusual. Yet their delivery completely lacked fight or even apparent passion about the subject.

The first interviewee was really lacklustre, hesitant and defensive. She sounded like she'd just woken up and was struggling to access the right section of her brain (sorry, interviewee and fans but that's what I heard). The only point of interest I heard from her was that Stonewall campaigns against women's rights. Interesting - that's not what people who've heard of Stonewall think it's about, so food for thought, for any listeners who can be bothered to pursue that line of thinking independently. The interview didn't join it up enough for me to understand (from listening only) quite why Stonewall would be doing that.

The second interviewee was ok, a bit more switched on but didn't really tell me anything.

Meh.

Procrastinator1 · 03/07/2018 10:22

Woman's Hour calling for contributions for series in the Autumn on LGBT issues including, I think, how you feel as a natal woman.

nauticant · 03/07/2018 10:24

Woman's Hour was mixed, for example much of the discussion was lazily looking at sexuality as an LGBT issue but at least Jane Garvey then separated out a sub-discussion of difficulties caused by transwomen in women-only spaces.

I get the impression Jane Garvey is actually thinking about this (although in the BBC context the constraints are pretty narrow and voicing GC thoughts could lead to disciplinary measures).

nauticant · 03/07/2018 10:27

I agree with your comment lottiegarbanzo. Foremost in my mind is "what will the audience in general make of this?"

Pratchet · 03/07/2018 10:35

I don't think JG is really a feminist. Definitely an activist for the underdog, and interested in womeny things though.

aaarrrggghhhh · 03/07/2018 10:36

I think youth hostel single sex dorms will make people go WTAF

nauticant · 03/07/2018 10:39

In this complete mess, I'll settle for open minded combined with critical thinking Pratchet.

R0wantrees · 03/07/2018 10:52

I was interested to hear on R4 during the introduction to Helen Belcher that TransMedia Watch represented both the transgender and intersex communities.

This unrolled Twitter thread from twitter.com/mrkhtake2 is relevent reading and worthwhile following her posts:

"We need to talk about what’s happening to the intersex community. I mean, seriously. I know I talk about it all the time but it’s critical

We need to talk about what’s happening to the intersex community. I mean, seriously. I know I talk about it all the time but it’s critical, so here’s a quick thread with a potted background and a few articles raising intersex voices.
Currently there’s a lot of talk about intersex conditions, “sex spectrums”, women without wombs, etc. I see John Money being extolled as an expert (Google him if you don’t know – it’s grim). A lot of this talk unfortunately ends up getting regurgitated in the mainstream media too
The problem in the UK is that Trans Media Watch have been allowed to become voice of the intersex community, for example, in this report to the hate crimes committee which was submitted by them..
data.parliament.uk/writtenevidenc…
The document says intersex all over it but represents very little from intersex community. In fact, if this is supposed to be looking at accurate reporting and media representation in order to fight prejudice, why didn’t they pick up on this?... (continues)

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1013106135002476544.html

bigKiteFlying · 03/07/2018 10:58

"My heart was sinking but Nick Robinson’s questioning of the Trans Media Watch rep nailed it, e.g. women in a women only swim not wanting “women with penises” in with them; commenting about women campaigning for decades for single sex spaces having to fight for those rights through the courts all over again.

^^ This.

The first interviewee did with help from Nick make some points - but the delivery wasn't clear. (Way better than I would do on national radio)

The second interviewee did come across better though Nick did well with questioning and her response of well women can go back through the courts to get rights they currently have was WTF moment and DH agreed.

I later heard the Government minster – and they seem aware of some issues but other things they said did concern me.

R0wantrees · 03/07/2018 11:09

Nick Robinson did a series of interviews including ones with Pris Lees and Peter Tatchell. They were replayed recently on Radio 4 , discussed here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3270344-Paris-Lees-interviewed-by-Nick-Robinson-on-Radio-4-now-on?

His interview with Angela Raynor from the same series was also replayed that week and is definitely worth listening to:
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0b48x4t

BiologyIsReal · 03/07/2018 11:24

OK, so the argument that we are confusing the EA with the GRA is being used and that single sex spaces remain safe. Ministers also say single sex spaces remain safe.

But, if trans women legally become women even without medical interventions then surely, as women, they are entitled to be in a single sex space i.e. natal women's space.

How the hell will the Government and legislation square that circle if they are crass enough to amend the GRA in the way TRAs want?

Seriously the Government is in danger of disappearing up its own fundament in that case.

This is all getting so surreal.

Pratchet · 03/07/2018 11:26

Is this still locked?

lottiegarbanzo · 03/07/2018 12:20

Thanks R0wantrees I'm sure that list will be really helpful to some of the many lurkers and visitors. Sorry if I wasn't clear. I meant that while I do understand why Stonewall would be doing that - I don't think that someone who hadn't read a few threads here already would have grapsed it from that interview.

I think that Stonewall is a 'strong brand', one most people have heard of and know is a gay rights organisation. So they'll have thought 'eh? fighting women's rights? What's that got to do with being pro-gay rights?' I'd imagine that most people either haven't put 'trans' and 'gay' together in their minds, as they are such different things, or, lump everything other than heterosexuality into an 'alternative' bundle that they aren't especially interested in but may feel generally benign or generally hostile towards.

So, I felt that the dots needed to be joined - rather they first needed to be presented e.g. 1) T added to LGB (by whom, because?), 2) T activists become prominent in LGBT organisations, 3) T activist agenda perceived to be in conflict with women's rights by women's rights activists, including lesbians.

But if no-one tells you 1 and especially 2, or makes any distinction between 'trans activist' and 'transsexual' it sounds, unfortunately, as though an organisation well known for defending and progressing minority rights (a liberal 'good thing') is meeting resistance from some women's groups, who may thereby be inferred to be conservative, prudish, stick-in-the-muds, or radical separatists left over from the 70s, who are probably just a bit old-fashioned, one way or another, as aren't all these progressive lefty causes basically the same thing?

To make the point that the rights of all women are at issue, not just the preferences of a few prudes or ideologues, it is essential to state what Stonewall (and other T-activist groups) is, these days, if you're going to refer to them. Otherwise it's just confusing.

I don't mean to be unkind to the interviewee and don't feel I'd do any better, on any subject. It's exactly because I know how I have and might respond to pressure that I 'heard' 'needs a cup of coffee' and 'is mentally on the defensive' so casting about in the wrong section of the brain, instead of 'ready, with a few key phrases, strong examples and a firm but positive attitude'.

The 'women with penises' point did come across. A bit more on why that might make women uncomfortable would have been good. That it conflicts with religious minority rights. That self-ID would allow men with ill-will to enter female-only spaces. Examples of this from the countries mentioned. What I heard was that self-ID had happened in a number of countries and there were no problems to report.

There was another interview on the subject on Today a few weeks ago, at 8.20ish, discussed here I'm sure, with two people going 'back and forth', which worked much better I thought. It made the point about Girl Guides (a simple example that people can grasp, enough, without context) and, while the TRA went on about being attacked on Twitter by rabid women, the other interviewee very sensibly didn't respond to that (had she done so, it would have descended into a 'she said', 'yeah but she said' slanging match and made them both look like loons) and sounded much firmer and more sensible.

R0wantrees · 03/07/2018 13:11

Kathleen Stock comment on R4 Today segment:
twitter.com/Docstockk/status/1014034586194542593

R0wantrees · 04/07/2018 15:36

James Kirkup refers to the Today interview in his article today:
blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/07/labour-and-tories-finally-see-the-truth-about-the-gender-debate/

(extract)
"For all that some people suggest it’s somehow prurient or distasteful to talk about penises in this debate, there is, as Nick Robinson put it in some excellent interviews on the Today Programme yesterday, no way to avoid this. The simple fact is that people with penises, whatever word we use to describe those people, are biologically different to people without penises, and that difference matters to many women in a way that cannot be dismissed as bigotry. It is, again, a simple fact that people with penises have the potential to commit certain acts of violence and abuse against others. That fact is the reason Parliament and society accept the concept of single-sex spaces: women have a right to keep someone with a penis out of those spaces."

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