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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is the left collapsing?

82 replies

Bamc1977 · 01/07/2018 12:48

I recently watched an interesting video from a controversial YouTuber arguing that the left have taken the contractions and absurdities in the ideology to their logical conclusions and are now slowly collapsing m.youtube.com/watch?v=Vd2FTtu0sVE&t=3024s
This vlogger isn’t a feminist and seems to be an old fashioned liberal from the past. So I wondered what feminists who are not onboard with trans agenda though, if the same conclusions are being reached by those with different political perspectives? I’m particularly interested as I was a Labour Party member who quit the party in disgust and joined UKIP and this youtuber is one of several high profile ones that have recently also joined

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Bamc1977 · 02/07/2018 11:04

“I have just realised the ironic hilarity of this. Its as if the angry left abandoners maybe doing so because of their own tendency to try to find offence in everything haha. Which is exactly why they think they are abandoning.“
They’re abandoning labour because they believe as a point of principle that free speech must mean no criminal sanctions or police harassment for expressing opinions that others find grossly offensive and that nobody has the right not to be offended. At least this is my reason and the reason of those others from YouTube that I know of. Labour moved from being the party of “I don’t agree with what you say but I will defend your right to say it” to “it must be illegal for you to say that because it is divisive or offensive”. For me the irony is that those who once supported these restrictions on free speech and are now critical of the trans agenda are finding out that the exact same tools that they used to silence others can also be used against themselves. I don’t find it funny though, scary more like.

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placemats · 02/07/2018 11:34

I liked the O'Toole article and I love this one:

medium.com/@tswriting/history-tells-us-what-will-happen-next-with-brexit-trump-a3fefd154714#.p304x8f48

This UK government is so insecure it relies on a bunch of homophobic politicians to shore them up.

GardenGeek · 02/07/2018 13:24

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Bamc1977 · 02/07/2018 14:20

I was a leave voter too as it happens, I really don’t think I am in denial. I don’t believe labour support free speech anymore and think I probably should have always been in ukip

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GardenGeek · 02/07/2018 14:44

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RedToothBrush · 02/07/2018 14:54

Its open v closed society. Liberal v Authoritarian.

The very definition of liberal has been hijacked and distorted in various ways. Today when someone says liberal, what they actually mean is neo-liberal economics (aka economic libertarianism) rather than liberal values of equality which are best summed up in the US Constitution:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed

What we are seeing is the idea that all people are not equal. Identity politics rather than aiding equality, has lost sight of the point about equality being about the most vunerable in a situation regardless of their identity.

Identity politics is much more of a hijacking of the ideals of liberalism by twisting and exploiting them for gain in order to produce inequality and to gain power.

The problem is really that people who are comfortable and don't understand the underlying principles of rights and why there was a need for them, don't really understand why they worked. Its complaceny.

Liberalism exists BOTH on the left AND right, and neither has done a great job of educating people as to the value and principles enshrined within it. Instead, the economic temptation of neo-liberalism has proved to hard to resist and very much unmined the balance of power, leading to exploitation and abandonment of those principles of all people being equal and worthy of respect.

With that context, those who are being exploited no longer feel that the contract of democracy, in which power is given to government by consent of the population, is working for them so look for alternatives. Of course this dis-satisfaction is also being exploited within this by authoritarians, but people do not yet feel the betrayal they have felt from those who profess to support liberalism. Its too early in the cycle, and the promise of a better future is very much still on the table. Hope is something which is incredibly difficult to crush within the human spirit.

This won't dissolve until authoritarianism has shown its ugly side - destroying that hope, or liberalism has managed to get rid of that cynicism and can offer a better alternative in which something better is on the table.

Arguably, it has already reached a point whereby liberalism can not defend itself, without the ugliness first showing itself in all its horror.

I certainly don't think this the fault alone of the left. Both the left and right have failed, through their own shortsightedness.

And its certainly not too late to start get back to the basics of why rights exist and what they protect us from, rather than simply parrot like stating that feminism is about equality of the sexes (its not). Unless you have the undertstanding behind the principle it can (and is) be used maliciously against that.

Indeed with the rise of authoritarism, it most definitely is the time to getting back in touch with those foundation stones and to learn lessons from them in order to limit the extent of the ugliness.

GardenGeek · 02/07/2018 15:00

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GardenGeek · 02/07/2018 15:03

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Imnobody4 · 02/07/2018 15:25

I feel caught in a pincer movement of the idiot children of post modernism and the idiot children of libertarianism both buoyed up by MRA mercenaries. It's like Robert Frost's 'Fire and ice' both can equally effectively destroy the world.

PerkingFaintly · 02/07/2018 15:27

Bowlofbabelfish, thank you so much for speaking my branes – but much more coherently than I ever manage – at Sun 01-Jul-18 15:14:58

Particularly this succinct nugget:
ask
What are you aiming for?
How will you achieve that?
Who/what will benefit/be harmed along the way?

Also Thanks for the link to that "Men whose lives are facilitated by women thread", which I was getting a huge amount out of and then mislaid. Have now Watched, to re-read at leisure.

RedToothBrush · 02/07/2018 15:44

GardenGeek

I think its difficult to do. There are models which try to combine both.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_compass
The best known one is the concept of the political compass which splits it into four quarters.

Personally, I am a little skeptical of it, as I'm not sure it reflects someone like Corbyn who is supposed to be socially liberal in supporting trans-rights, when this is done at the expense of women's rights and through highly authoritarian methods which are at odds with freedom of speech. Identity politics has a habit of almost 'breaking' the model.

I don't seem to fit neatly into the model myself. I think most people tend to move around a little bit.

I just think its a bit clumsy and rather crude, but decent enough as a basic concept for getting your head around the most basic difference between left and right v authoritarian and liberal.

There are other models though

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_spectrum#Multi-axis_models
Which from the sheer number of them, shows that no one really has a magic answer to the question you are asking, in being able to place you into a nice neat little box.

Personally I think thats not a bad thing.

RedToothBrush · 02/07/2018 15:48

I feel caught in a pincer movement of the idiot children of post modernism and the idiot children of libertarianism both buoyed up by MRA mercenaries. It's like Robert Frost's 'Fire and ice' both can equally effectively destroy the world.

I don't think you are alone by any means.

Materialist · 02/07/2018 15:50

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thebewilderness · 02/07/2018 15:54

Here is a quote and a short essay about taking offense as though outrage were a drug designed to stimulate self righteousness.

"The problem with taking offense is that it’s impotent and indulgent. It may feel good, but it doesn’t change anything. It doesn’t matter. Offendedness is a pale, watery substitute for anger.

Anger, that beautiful daughter of hope, demands action. Anger changes things. It seeks to correct the injustice that offendedness merely wants to savor. "

www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/2011/06/29/just-say-no/

LangCleg · 02/07/2018 15:58

I feel caught in a pincer movement of the idiot children of post modernism and the idiot children of libertarianism both buoyed up by MRA mercenaries.

Yep. Not helped by the centre position collapsing in the wake of the 2008 financial crash so instead of sane politics orbiting a secure centre, we have the crazies on both sides running around in equally apocalyptic fantasy lands.

GardenGeek · 02/07/2018 16:02

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RedToothBrush · 02/07/2018 16:05

so instead of sane politics orbiting a secure centre, we have the crazies on both sides running around in equally apocalyptic fantasy lands.

I'm really loving this descriptions of our current political basketcasery.

Water is no longer wet in 2018. We just haven't had this written into law yet. That's planned for the 2022 manifesto pledges.

GardenGeek · 02/07/2018 16:09

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LangCleg · 02/07/2018 16:11

I'm really loving this descriptions of our current political basketcasery.

True though, isn't it?!

If they'd found the answers in 2008-10, we'd have a secure centre and some sensible left/right parties. But they didn't. So all the western economies are running around in increasingly destructive circles with their societies becoming more and more divided.

I think we've lost the moment forever, to be honest. We're now just flailing about uselessly while we wait for the Chinese to take over and direct things. Socially speaking, I think we'll be a disaster for ages.

RedToothBrush · 02/07/2018 16:13

I have done quite a few of these tests but I am always a paradox

I am socially liberal, but I don't buy into bullshit.
This is currently a political paradox.

Go figure.

GardenGeek · 02/07/2018 16:14

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GardenGeek · 02/07/2018 16:18

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RedToothBrush · 02/07/2018 16:22

I think we've lost the moment forever, to be honest. We're now just flailing about uselessly while we wait for the Chinese to take over and direct things. Socially speaking, I think we'll be a disaster for ages.

I don't disagree.

The recent Dr Who Oxygen keeps springing to mind.

Especially in the context of this type of thing going on in China
uk.businessinsider.com/china-emotional-surveillance-technology-2018-4?r=US&IR=T

Bleak doesn't even cut it.

LangCleg · 02/07/2018 16:25

Bleak doesn't even cut it.

That's where I am, I'm afraid.

RedToothBrush · 02/07/2018 16:25

Gardengeek,

I am struggling to think of a reason to vote. Apart from the one about the importance of voting on principle.