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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is the left collapsing?

82 replies

Bamc1977 · 01/07/2018 12:48

I recently watched an interesting video from a controversial YouTuber arguing that the left have taken the contractions and absurdities in the ideology to their logical conclusions and are now slowly collapsing m.youtube.com/watch?v=Vd2FTtu0sVE&t=3024s
This vlogger isn’t a feminist and seems to be an old fashioned liberal from the past. So I wondered what feminists who are not onboard with trans agenda though, if the same conclusions are being reached by those with different political perspectives? I’m particularly interested as I was a Labour Party member who quit the party in disgust and joined UKIP and this youtuber is one of several high profile ones that have recently also joined

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DietCoke87 · 01/07/2018 19:05

"He basically reiterates a lot of the right wing propaganda that enables certain people to maintain the status quo in a social environment enabling the exploitation of certain other people in the name of "individual choice" and "reality of life" while remaining completely ignorant of socioeconomic influences and class analysis."

You summed up Sargon of Akkad quite nicely. I've been watching this "classical liberal" dudes videos and actions for years.

"I think feminists understand we are the ball in the manly sport of politics when the discussion between the parties turns to to the dispute over how best to position the boot on women's neck. "

Right = women are private property
Left = woman are public property

Bamc1977 · 01/07/2018 19:20

“These are good questions and I think most feminists err on the side of; there are physiological reasons for this, but better socialisation conditions for males could help control these behaviours.
Men and women are clearly different physiologically but does this mean women aren't so good mentally in STEM subjects?”
I think it’s more likely to be a case of women just tend to be less interested in the STEM subjects, and I see nothing wrong with that. In countries like Malaysia more women go into the STEM subjects than in countries like Norway as the threat of poverty can push people in to prioritising what will most likely earn them a good salary over what they will actually enjoy and find mentally rewarding.

“You're thinking from a biological determinist point of view.”
Yes, I guess this is how I actually think about it. This is why I cannot accept all of the trans rights agenda. I have no problem with calling someone by the pronoun they prefer and treating everyone decently but if you ask me if a man who believes he is a woman actually is a women, because they believe they are I’d have to say in all honesty the answer is no. I just can’t believe that is true. It’s not that I don’t want that to be true, it’s just I can’t see how that could possibly be so. In away I would actually like to believe him because it would be easier, but I simply can’t.

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Bowlofbabelfish · 01/07/2018 19:31

I think it’s more likely to be a case of women just tend to be less interested in the STEM subjects

As a woman in STEM I would say this wasn’t the reason. Women are not inherently and innately ‘less interested.’ Society socialises girls from birth to be a certain way, and a small part of that is the careers stuff (boys are xxx and like xxx/ girls are xxx and like xxx.) then there’s overt pressure through school. As a kid I heard, innumerable times that ‘this wasn’t for nice girls.’ That sinks in. It means that women choose these careers less. There’s no inherent reason women ‘aren’t good at/interested in’ STEM.

I’ve never seen a laser microscope that needed a penis to operate.

Some (not all) areas of STEM are so riddled with misogyny you wouldn’t believe - computer science/tech type companies are particularly bad. Just look at Twitter. Others are more female friendly - I have worked with a couple of very successful all female or predominantly female biotech companies for example.

The dearth of women in some areas of stem is socialisation and shit company culture.

heresyandwitchcraft · 01/07/2018 19:37

OP
To be honest, I am not sure how to feel about Sargon of Akkad (the speaker). I think he might sometimes makes sense, but I do think he is more of an anti- everything (SJW/feminist/socialist/etc), and a bit of a provocateur. His internet history is controversial, as you've pointed out. Some of his critiques are probably okay for particular arguments, but I think he can miss the nuance, and is not the best at building things back up holistically.
This is the same issue I have with Jordan Peterson. I have no problem with him worrying about men (because I worry about women). It does concern me that under the guise of a warped idea of "intersectionality" (which I do believe has been hijacked from the original lens that Crenshaw meant) we are building new hierarchies to punish the old ones, instead of abolishing them... I am not sure I can agree with how Peterson views feminism and women, because I reckon that he genuinely is arguing an "evolutionary psychology," relatively essentialist, position of women's interests and character being more "neurotic" and "agreeable". I don't really mind research into the subject, but it rankles because historically women have always been described as "hysterical" or "irrational," usually to support viewpoints like not allowing women to own property or vote. My argument is that even if some psychological differences are broadly present, as they may be, there is very little way real way of telling what exactly is nature and what is nurture. Because unless we dump a whole bunch of people into a desert island from birth without any outside influence, how do we tell? Broadly speaking we ought to accept that men and women are different, and there might be an element of innate psychology there. However, when we code certain personalities for certain sexes, this hurts everyone in the long run. If you don't code personalities for races, you shouldn't do so for sexes.
In my ideal world, we would strive to ensure equality of opportunity - but not necessarily equality of outcome, because individuals need to be able to influence their own outcomes. The problem is we have to find ways of creating a somewhat level playing field to start with, and here is where it gets murky. Because sexism is real. Racism is real. Prejudices are obviously real.
I am genuinely conflicted about the best way forward. In principle, I am instinctively against "positive discrimination" initiatives as there is something that doesn't sit right with me about choosing someone for a role based on characteristics they cannot change (sex and ethnic background being some of them), but at the same time I do get fed up with, for example, watching all male comedy panel shows all the time. And there is a huge problem if we ignore the fact that women actually need maternity leave in order to give birth to the next generation of people. I am not sure that enforced quotas or ratios is necessarily the right path forward, but I do think there ought to be careful consideration of things like programs to empower people (and this applies to economic background, etc as well). Because the honest truth is that people do pick up on societal messages that certain career paths/futures are simply not for them, and I believe that representation very likely plays a role in that.
I guess my argument boils down to this: I don't need STEM fields to be 50% female any more than I need 50% of the fishing industry to be female. But I want 100% of females to feel like they could go into STEM or fishing if they wanted to, and that these fields would be as easy for them to enter as it would be for any male. Likewise, if males want to go into nursing, for example, they should be allowed to, and not face structural discrimination from society. That doesn't mean I need nursing to be a 50% male field.
On the trans thing, I believe that there's a fundamental misunderstanding of sex, which is the problem. Trans ideology is an extension of the idea that males and females have "different brains," which is categorically untrue. There are brains in male and female bodies, but they mean as much to me as the assertions that there are kidneys of those who have male or female bodies. In other words, it means nothing. If you can say that you have a "female brain" in a male body, it means you're saying you can have a "female kidney" in a male body. Which is absolute horse s**t.
Basically, if I had a magic wand, we'd all move back to the centre so at least we could all talk to each other and hash these complex ideas out. I am a huge fan of meeting in the middle, if only to try and understand things.

Bowlofbabelfish · 01/07/2018 19:47

Regarding evolutionary psychology.

I am a geneticist. My heart sinks when I hear arguments using it because they are always, without fail, being used to Justify Bad Shit.

(And they usually get the science wrong too...)

If you hear someone dragging evolutionary psychology into a debate on, well anything political, it should start your Bad Science Alert Alarm 🚨

aaahhhBump · 01/07/2018 19:54

My DH sent me this during the week the right and left have put us in this position.

www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-trial-runs-for-fascism-are-in-full-flow-1.3543375?mode=amp

thebewilderness · 01/07/2018 19:58

I think it’s more likely to be a case of women just tend to be less interested in the STEM subjects

If you talk to women who work in male dominated fields you learn all the things men do to women in male dominated fields. Then you know what happens to women in male dominated fields and stop blaming women for refusing to tolerate what men do to them.

heresyandwitchcraft · 01/07/2018 20:02

My heart sinks when I hear arguments using it because they are always, without fail, being used to Justify Bad Shit.
Yes. Times a million. I love your voice in this thread, and elsewhere. But I think it's important that we acknowledge the essentialist view that is being used to justify positions in this debate. People get super upset about racial "differences," but have not problem with sex-based ones. My argument is it doesn't matter!

Bamc1977 · 01/07/2018 20:08

“The Left had better not fall apart, because the Tories are ripping up the raisons d'etre of good government”

Well in Germany where they have PR the mainstream centre left and right (Merkel and the SDP) are polling less than 50% between them now. The old political centre ground is rapidly melting. I expect Sweden to deliver a shock next. I’m trying to understand what is happening as I am convinced that the western world is entering a new political order and the old order that arose after WWII (but especially since the 1960’s) is collapsing. I’ve no idea where we are going though.

“I don't need STEM fields to be 50% female any more than I need 50% of the fishing industry to be female. But I want 100% of females to feel like they could go into STEM or fishing if they wanted to, and that these fields would be as easy for them to enter as it would be for any male.”
I feel exactly the same. But I’m an individualist, not a feminist.

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heresyandwitchcraft · 01/07/2018 20:16

I feel exactly the same. But I’m an individualist, not a feminist.
That's a lovely sentiment and I thank you. However, the point is that making sure every female feels they are included, from a structual sense, is a feminist issue.

Bowlofbabelfish · 01/07/2018 20:28

That Fintan O Toole article is bang on.

It is fucking terrifying. We are being groomed en masse to accept the unacceptable.

Seeing those children removed from their parents - just barbaric. I see them and I see my own child cry. And I can’t understand why anyone else can look at that and NOT see their child cry. That pic today in the news of three drowned toddlers/babies in the med - how can anyone look at that and be unmoved.

The narrative in the press is that if you’re moved by this or object then you’re for totally open borders. It’s like there’s no nuance allowed. Only black and white, us and then, goodies and baddies. But no toddler is a baddie ffs.

thebewilderness · 01/07/2018 20:38

Authoritarianism is always resurgent because about 60% of the population have authoritarian tendencies.

ItIsOnlyAnOpinion · 01/07/2018 21:37

The hard left and far right, extremism and authoritarian behaviour is stronger than ever, the centre and democracy are collapsing.

Bamc1977 · 01/07/2018 22:27

“The hard left and far right, extremism and authoritarian behaviour is stronger than ever, the centre and democracy are collapsing.”
But where do you think we will go once the old political centre left and centre right melt away? Is trump and the new governments in places like Italy, Austria, Poland and Hungary going to be the old order? Are people like Justin Trudeau and Angela Merkel the last of a dying breed?

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ItIsOnlyAnOpinion · 01/07/2018 22:31

I don't know. Being afraid will not help, I know that much.

GardenGeek · 02/07/2018 01:50

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GardenGeek · 02/07/2018 02:02

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thebewilderness · 02/07/2018 02:08

When you switch liberalism to libertarian your freudian slip is showing.

GardenGeek · 02/07/2018 02:10

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GardenGeek · 02/07/2018 02:19

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GardenGeek · 02/07/2018 02:27

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thebewilderness · 02/07/2018 02:43

All I did was point out your Freudian slip.
We have not talked at any time to either agree or disagree about anything, but thank you for telling me what I think and then shouting at me.
Go well.

GardenGeek · 02/07/2018 02:51

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GardenGeek · 02/07/2018 02:53

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GardenGeek · 02/07/2018 03:03

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