Blown away by how little a lot of people care about women’s rights

[sundaynamechange1]

I’ve name changed.

How do you challenge or discuss self ID with women who think it solely boils down to sharing a toilet and we have nothing better to do but cause trouble.

Honestly don’t know how I’m going to face them again - which is pretty soon.

I don’t know if it’s purely down to age, they like a bit of a ruckus and being devils advocate or they really are that thick. How can you have pleasantries with a woman who think men get just as a bad deal/ assaulted and that’s it’s fine to put a violent man in a female prison because you lose your rights if you commit a crime.

Honestly I’m staggered today and worried for our future

Or someone whose gender you can't determine?

You mean sex?

I honestly don't care what gender someone is or identifies as because it is irrelevant.

Or a butch lesbian you think is probably a woman but you can't tell?

Butch women don't look like men. They look like butch women.

Hygge I absolutely love the term WERMs! How long before it's banned though?

Ok I give up... What's WERM star for?

I have no idea @WichBitchHarpyTerfThatsMe (typing that made me laugh) but if TERF is allowed then WERM should be allowed too. It's not aimed at trans people, it's aimed at anybody who feels women's rights are lesser or replaceable in any context or who feel that women's dialogue should be controlled or censored. So it should be allowed to stand.

@BeUpStanding it means Women Exclusionary Radical Misogynist and as above, I think it applies to anybody who is against women, women's rights, and women's dialogue.

Hi Sunday,

Before I was GC I didn't see the problem with bathrooms either.

Couple of points on that -

First, when I was thinking about a transwoman in a womens bathroom it was always that. ONE. TRANSWOMAN. As in a single person who was clearly passing as female just using a bathroom. Which I still don't think is a problem. So to your friend I would say 'you know how you sometimes go into the bathroom when you're out drinking and there are 6 women in the bathroom just hanging out by the sinks, checking their make-up and having a chat and you go into the stall to pee and/or puke and it's all fine? Now imagine they're 6 huge guys with beards and tattoos chatting about all the bitches and slags they fucked over the weekend and flexing in the mirror. It's ok, they identify as transgender, they're allowed to be in there. Are you still totally comfortable?'

Also, I was always considering how I would feel seeing a transwoman in the bathroom. I know a few, I wouldn't be freaked out. But then one day I realized that I'm not just making the decision for me, I'm making the decision for my 60 year old coworker who is about 5 foot even and wears clothes just slightly bigger than child sizes. I'm privileged as a woman because I'm physically large, confident, and have never been raped. What about all the other women? It is my right to piss away their comfort just because mine won't be affected? So even if SHE'S happy using the stall in the above scenario, does she think women who've been raped should be? If not, then why are male people's needs being put ahead of women's needs in the women's room?

The other thing is that bathrooms are the thin end of the wedge. As soon as you shift it to change rooms a lot of people switch to a hard no. Remember that most transpeople do NOT have surgery. And if she's fine with change rooms what about with having men who identify as women watch her take a urine test? Strip search her? Cavity search her? Perform gynecological exams? And again, even if SHE is comfortable with it, does that give her the right to sign off on ALL women being forced into it?

All good points Bloodmagic. I'd never really considered the number of individuals in a space before. The lone transperson, maybe passing but not causing a problem, is an image that's used a lot. But it's just one scenario, the reality can be very different.

The trouble is rights and freedoms are lost bit by bit. Small changes here and there, and then you're at the tipping point and it's too late. Price of freedom is eternal vigilance. Most people have an optimism bias.

Men who identify as women can still inherit above older female siblings, while women who identify as men cannot then inherit in place of younger male siblings

That applies to nobility titles. It does not apply to the land , money or other assets owned by the deceased. Whilst it is unfair please do not try paint this as women are disinherited in favour of men.

I wrote in one of the other threads (in regard to the self id petition) that i had sent the petition link to many women and a few men that I know well- the men have all signed the petition- and let me know they had done so. However a few of the women have said they think its discriminatory. I was quite surprised they felt that way and I just said “ok that’s your personal feeling and I accept that”- to be honest I didn’t know what else to say as they really didn’t seem
Bothered about the issues.

Sorry also to add to my previous post, of the women I reached out some were ethnic miniorities, some were religious, some had experience of domestic violence through their own work with women, some of them teach English as a second language to groups of women who have come to England from south Asian and middle eastern countries - they have seen some of these students suffer at the hands of violent men,suffered abuse etc and yet ththey we same women I reached out to thought the petition was discriminatory

Daughter i think it can be painful for women to face the reality - that men hate women and every single second of every single day, they do is harm. So the default becomes defensiveness and almost arguing on behalf of the oppressors.

With every oppressed class in history, there have been those who have sided with the oppressors. Women are no different. They do it to avoid pain.

They do US harm!

Denial is not just a river in Egypt as the ancient joke goes!

I think as well it only becomes apparent as you get older just how much men hate women. [Not my Nigel of course].

It is endemic.

Oh yes Facts (love your name...totally with you). I only realized when I stopped being young and beautiful and became a mum, middle aged and feminist. Then it hits you in your face and never leaves.

Snappity of course you are correct. We should continue to apply critical thought and examine whether we have got the GC position right. Its why I am particularly glad to see dissenting voices on here.

Frankly I'd love to be reassured that transgender ideology poses no threat to women and children. However I have yet to see evidence that even comes close to persuading me of this. Feel free to present any studies that you have. Or just start with definitions of 'sex', 'woman and 'gender'.

Or just start with definitions of 'sex', 'woman and 'gender'.

It is the gender critical position which relies on these terms but for which I have never seen comprehensive definitions which cover all special cases.

So far as I can tell, the opposing view does not require precise definitions because it is happy with ambiguity.

When you belong to the class who can get pregnant you do need to be specific about biology.

Sex is based on reproductive role

I'm a feminist, I think women have a bum deal most of the time, I think the majority of men are selfish gits or worse and I am concerned with the rights of women.

But I don't understand the trans debate. It seems irrelevant and too abstract a worry for me to get concerned about. There are real things to be concerned about. I'm a liberal thinker, I don't mind men in women's spaces or vice versa.

Try asking "Can a penis be feminine?"

How, by tying a pretty pink bow around it?

Glitter. A peenjazzle.

How can you expect people to not immediately label the gender critical side of the debate as transphobic when a lot of the time those arguing it aren’t distinguishing.

I can’t find the words (so sleep deprived) but I think a lot of it has blown out of control. For example, a lot of people will know a transgender person that’s been living as their preferred gender for years and will be happily living their life in peace without bugging everyone... when people come shouting around calling them a ‘man in a dress’ when they may well have a vagina and be living as a woman for years, battled depression and all sorts - it’s then harder to take the debate seriously that someone could literally be a man in a dress using your changing room for fun.

Personally I think a lot of those I see on mumsnet need some perspective on this and work out what you actually want - sometimes I am there with you ladies all the way, other times it makes me terribly sad having a very good friend that had been suicidal, cut of his whole family and now is finally living happily as a man, that his whole experiance and journey of getting there is some kind of fetish or whatever.

Bizarrely in RL I find it’s the more highly educated ‘woke’ brigade who refuse to see concerns. The average uneducated person (like me) says several things that would get you barred from Facebook/Twitter/here if you raise the subject but isn’t actually going to do anything about it as they think it’s so completely batshit common sense will prevail and it doesn’t directly affect them. The most outspoken person I know who is actively trying to convert others is a Tory Male and he’s completely GC (daughters at uni, totally raging about gender neutral toilets).

On the other hand watching the clymer debaucle unfold on twitter yesterday was truly scary. It is actually a cult. Seeing that many people blindly following a narcissist was frightening.