The case for retaining single-sex mass toilets alongside any unisex provision **Title edited by MNHQ at the request of the OP**

[haXXor]

On the upskirting thread, I mentioned that I had googled for shoe cameras and found a vendor. The vendor's website was a real eyeopener. They are based in Shenzen in China, the electronics manufacturing capital of the world, so they have easy access to the manufacturing facilities needed to make microelectronic devices.

Amongst their range of products, I found two toilet brushes with hidden cameras in, from as little as US$212 (~£160 at time of writing). That's a pretty low barrier to acquisition. There are dozens of convincing shower gel and shampoo bottles to leave in gym or workplace showers or to film showering flatmates.

They also have a range of shoe cameras, including one that shows, in the illustrative image, a man looking a picture of a woman's knicker-clad vulva on a computer screen. Many of the item descriptions have "we are not responsible if this camera is used for illegal activities, this is a home security camera and should be treated as such, with responsibility" appended: these arseholes know exactly what the buyers of their wares are going to do with them, otherwise they wouldn't try to claim innocence with their pathetic figleaf disclaimer.

That the owners of this website will so brazenly monetise female objectification is proof that patriarchy and misogyny are real.

Anyway, on to why this makes me demand that single-sex mass toilets are retained alongside any unisex provision installed for non-binary and trans people.

On another thread, we discussed criminology and security theory models for keeping women safe and I outlined the Swiss Cheese model to explain why we need multiple layers of defence against predatory males attacking females. Filming a woman or girl in a place where they reasonably expected privacy is an attack on her privacy and dignity, and the Sexual Offences Act 2006 agrees with me here, voyeurism is a crime.

Assume that we have a male who has bought a toilet brush camera, or a door hook camera, or a cross-head screw camera, and wishes to place it into a toilet that women will use. He will put his camera into a suitable pocket or bag and go to his chosen women's loo.

• If the toilet is a mass toilet and designated women-only, a man walking in will attract attention and he may be challenged by passersby and stopped from entering. If he manages to get in unspotted, he may find women in the toilet, who will challenge him and call for management or the police. Even if the mass female-only toilet is unoccupied when he enters, he could be walked in on whilst setting his camera up and be stopped that way. That's two cheese layers, plus the deterrent effect of the fear of being caught in the act.
• If the toilet is a single occupant female toilet, he might get challenged on the way in or out, but once he is inside, he locks the door, and he has all the time he wants to set his camera up without anyone catching him in the act. That's one cheese layer.
• If the toilet is a single occupant unisex toilet, he walks right in unchallenged, he locks the door, and he has all the time he wants to set his camera up without anyone catching him in the act. That's zero cheese layers.

There ought to be, and isn't in many cases, another layer of cheese: cleaners spotting the toilet brush/hook/extra screw and investigating and reporting. This assumes that the same cleaners are cleaning the loos every day and learning what "right" looks like for that loo. With cleaners increasingly being temps, they might not have that consistent exposure, and they may not have a clear reporting line for that kind of anomaly. Plus, if they have no stability, they will have no sense of pride in their work and hence not care. I know that when I was a temp minwage cleaner, I didn't care. When I was a permanant and reasonably well-paid computer operator, I learned what "right" looked like in my machine room and flagged anomalies quickly.

Other than fighting for single-sex spaces as a right (not a service provider option) and for stability of employment for cleaners, what else can we do to prevent men from invading our privacy like this?

You can see that pattern playing out in terms of which commenters where our resident trans activists have given up on trying to bully into compliance and which ones they're focusing attention on because they've attempted to negotiate.

I love that.

No Parasan!

Would be great if someone could photoshop a meme/flag with that caption to represent us.

Hmm. Most of the TRAs engage very little with me even when I specifically ask them to. Indeed my views are often thread killers. And yet I'm all sorts of shades of grey. Self contained unisex toilets help GNC women, fathers with daughters, vulnerable men, disabled people with an opposite sex carer, family groups, people who want privacy full stop rather than just privacy from the opposite sex. I'm used to checking religiously for spiders. I can extend that to cameras.

"I also think the need for validation makes a more complex layer. A third space would not be good enough precisely because of the nature of the argument and dominant thinking within the trans culture/ideology."

Where do you get this "need for validation"? There's a desire not to be othered but that is very different. In my experience, because of the repeated discrimination that trans people suffer, they are very focused on equality and are against othering on principle. A very positive position. Yet you cast it in the negative as a need for validation.

You can see that pattern playing out in terms of which commenters where our resident trans activists have given up on trying to bully into compliance and which ones they're focusing attention on because they've attempted to negotiate.

Absolutely

"Hmm. Most of the TRAs engage very little with me even when I specifically ask them to. Indeed my views are often thread killers. And yet I'm all sorts of shades of grey."

There is a lot more commonality than these threads bring out, I think. But it is almost impossible to have a discussion on that with people who don't see trans women as women and don't recognise that some trans women want surgery but can't get it yet, or are medically advised against it (eg on cardiac grounds).

In my experience, because of the repeated discrimination that trans people suffer, they are very focused on equality and are against othering on principle.

Mmm yes I am sure this is the reason for trying to get a brazilian wax on male cock and balls from a female beautician...

All about suffering cock and balls descrimination.

The client's right to have their balls waxed at the salon of their choice is more equal than the waxer's right to refuse service, obviously.

Self contained unisex toilets help GNC women, fathers with daughters, vulnerable men, disabled people with an opposite sex carer, family groups, people who want privacy full stop rather than just privacy from the opposite sex.

I don't object to third spaces at all, Sarah. If various groups - not limited to trans groups, as you say - wish to fight for extra provision then I say good luck to them.

But this is not a feminist issue. It has nothing to do with me or my feminist priorities. My feminist priorities are centred, in a patriarchal world shaped for women by male violence and sexual abuse, on retaining, protecting and, if possible, extending, sex-based spaces, services and rights for women and girls.

If third spaces are needed for other groups, there's no onus on feminists to compromise their own priorities to campaign for them. We're entitled to focus on our own priorities. All of this focus on third spaces, which are nothing to do with us, and how EqA could be rewritten to suit groups who are not us? It's just a way to force women to focus their efforts on people who aren't women and girls. Otherwise why is it all over a feminist board?

I focus on women and girls. End of.

Self contained unisex toilets help GNC women, fathers with daughters, vulnerable men, disabled people with an opposite sex carer, family groups, people who want privacy full stop rather than just privacy from the opposite sex.

Completely agree with this. My mum has difficulty walking and it is me who has to help her to a toilet cubicle, not my brothers. And I don't see unisex toilets as particularly a trans issue - most trans people are binary and happy to use the toilets of their lived gender.

FWIW I am currently in France and all the toilets are multi-occupancy unisex. The last toilet I went in had an unshielded urinal as well - which I thought was a bit much.

The issues seem to be practical and cultural, not one of women's safety.

"FWIW I am currently in France and all the toilets are multi-occupancy unisex. The last toilet I went in had an unshielded urinal as well - which I thought was a bit much.

" The issues seem to be practical and cultural, not one of women's safety."

The French parts of Belgium are the same. Go to the loo in the pub and you will probably pass a guy at a urinal doing his business. As someone used to the British system of modesty it feels very strange, even shocking, but I guess if one is raised in Belgium or France it would feel normal and they would wonder why the British get so hung up about toilets. There's definitely an huge cultural component to the debate which rarely gets mentioned.

Our own culture is the only one relevant here, since we are not discussing provision in Belgium or France.

If third spaces are needed for other groups, there's no onus on feminists to compromise their own priorities to campaign for them. We're entitled to focus on our own priorities. All of this focus on third spaces, which are nothing to do with us, and how EqA could be rewritten to suit groups who are not us? It's just a way to force women to focus their efforts on people who aren't women and girls. Otherwise why is it all over a feminist board?

I focus on women and girls. End of.

Exactly

*I also think the need for validation makes a more complex layer. A third space would not be good enough precisely because of the nature of the argument and dominant thinking within the trans culture/ideology."

Where do you get this "need for validation"? There's a desire not to be othered but that is very different. In my experience, because of the repeated discrimination that trans people suffer, they are very focused on equality and are against othering on principle. A very positive position. Yet you cast it in the negative as a need for validation.*

Firstly, do you see YOUR needs, YOUR desired not to be othered. Not once do you even recognise the concern and worry that others might feel, because it's YOUR world, YOUR reality, that we all simply need to accept and work around.

The need for validation is clear. The desire not to be othered, is still part of needing validation.

In its most practical terms, it's part of the process of 'living as a woman' in order to get a GRC.
In its most crude terms its boasting that you went for a smear test to 'test' whether the nurse could tell whether a vagina looked real. I have seen this mentioned.

We are not a character or a costume.

Why should our space be used to validate your experiences?

Our own culture is the only one relevant here, since we are not discussing provision in Belgium or France.

I think it's important to remember we also have women here from cultures where sharing facilities is not allowed. They will be thrown under the bus if unisex provisions come into force.

This is not a go at you Permission I just wanted to tag as you raised commented on the topic.

I should clarify the YOU was not directly to snappity.
It's a general YOU.
Snappity is not the one who said they went for a smear.

I wonder if English is my first language sometimes.

This is not a go at you Permission I just wanted to tag as you raised commented on the topic.

This is not a go at you Permission. I wanted to tag my comment onto yours as you posted about the issue of culture.

Holy shit kettle is that what was meant by othering?

That is an appropriation and a half of that word - to abuse the word 'othering' to mean 'showing any awareness or appropriate adjustment for my biological sex' rather than 'to be viewed/treated as only other to the dominant class of human'.

What privilege!

No worries spontaneous

No one deserves to be treated as any less than anyone else.

But that does not mean to claim a right to something that isn't yours.

What other group has demanded the right to something that wasn't theirs in the first place?

LGB groups, BME groups, disabled groups have demanded to be accepted and claim what was rightfully theirs in the first place.

Aligning transgroups with these groups when it's comes to self-Id and access to women's space is disgusting.

It's the same pattern isn't it? Over and over again we see the same thing.

Appear on these threads, trawl through and gaslight your way through posts, highlighting them and completely spin and misinterpret what the posters say. Never answer a question. Tell people they are wrong without a shred of evidence to support your case.

Then leave.

Can't think why there is the idea that the whole trans discourse is navigated by manipulative narcissists .

Indeed.

Looks like this is a massive problem in Korea. ‘My life is not your porn’: 30,000 South Korean women protest spy cams

It won't be long until it is a problem here.

I am planning to write to all of companies that have mixed-sex changing rooms, and my local leisure centre that has mixed sex changing rooms, asking them what measures they put in place to protect their customers from spy cameras.

I agree with your post OP but, given that male toilet attendants could be the ones who put the cameras in place, I think the onus has to be on those who run the facilities where people are in a state of undress to take measures to keep -people- women and children safe from spy cameras and voyeurs.

I'd also like to manufacture some underwear for women that says 'fuck off you creepy perv' on the bottom to be seen by those who use those shoe cameras.

"Why should our space be used to validate your experiences?"
I don't need validation. I am a woman. Always have been and, as I have no desire to change, always will be. So what is your point?

I haven't always been a woman. I used to be a girl - before the breasts, periods etc.