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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The case for retaining single-sex mass toilets alongside any unisex provision **Title edited by MNHQ at the request of the OP**

158 replies

haXXor · 22/06/2018 23:03

On the upskirting thread, I mentioned that I had googled for shoe cameras and found a vendor. The vendor's website was a real eyeopener. They are based in Shenzen in China, the electronics manufacturing capital of the world, so they have easy access to the manufacturing facilities needed to make microelectronic devices.

Amongst their range of products, I found two toilet brushes with hidden cameras in, from as little as US$212 (~£160 at time of writing). That's a pretty low barrier to acquisition. There are dozens of convincing shower gel and shampoo bottles to leave in gym or workplace showers or to film showering flatmates.

They also have a range of shoe cameras, including one that shows, in the illustrative image, a man looking a picture of a woman's knicker-clad vulva on a computer screen. Many of the item descriptions have "we are not responsible if this camera is used for illegal activities, this is a home security camera and should be treated as such, with responsibility" appended: these arseholes know exactly what the buyers of their wares are going to do with them, otherwise they wouldn't try to claim innocence with their pathetic figleaf disclaimer.

That the owners of this website will so brazenly monetise female objectification is proof that patriarchy and misogyny are real.

Anyway, on to why this makes me demand that single-sex mass toilets are retained alongside any unisex provision installed for non-binary and trans people.

On another thread, we discussed criminology and security theory models for keeping women safe and I outlined the Swiss Cheese model to explain why we need multiple layers of defence against predatory males attacking females. Filming a woman or girl in a place where they reasonably expected privacy is an attack on her privacy and dignity, and the Sexual Offences Act 2006 agrees with me here, voyeurism is a crime.

Assume that we have a male who has bought a toilet brush camera, or a door hook camera, or a cross-head screw camera, and wishes to place it into a toilet that women will use. He will put his camera into a suitable pocket or bag and go to his chosen women's loo.

  • If the toilet is a mass toilet and designated women-only, a man walking in will attract attention and he may be challenged by passersby and stopped from entering. If he manages to get in unspotted, he may find women in the toilet, who will challenge him and call for management or the police. Even if the mass female-only toilet is unoccupied when he enters, he could be walked in on whilst setting his camera up and be stopped that way. That's two cheese layers, plus the deterrent effect of the fear of being caught in the act.
  • If the toilet is a single occupant female toilet, he might get challenged on the way in or out, but once he is inside, he locks the door, and he has all the time he wants to set his camera up without anyone catching him in the act. That's one cheese layer.
  • If the toilet is a single occupant unisex toilet, he walks right in unchallenged, he locks the door, and he has all the time he wants to set his camera up without anyone catching him in the act. That's zero cheese layers.

There ought to be, and isn't in many cases, another layer of cheese: cleaners spotting the toilet brush/hook/extra screw and investigating and reporting. This assumes that the same cleaners are cleaning the loos every day and learning what "right" looks like for that loo. With cleaners increasingly being temps, they might not have that consistent exposure, and they may not have a clear reporting line for that kind of anomaly. Plus, if they have no stability, they will have no sense of pride in their work and hence not care. I know that when I was a temp minwage cleaner, I didn't care. When I was a permanant and reasonably well-paid computer operator, I learned what "right" looked like in my machine room and flagged anomalies quickly.

Other than fighting for single-sex spaces as a right (not a service provider option) and for stability of employment for cleaners, what else can we do to prevent men from invading our privacy like this?

OP posts:
thebewilderness · 23/06/2018 01:54

Constant misrepresentation is this users MO.

TerfsUp · 23/06/2018 05:46

Seconding Pratchet's request.

TerfsUp · 23/06/2018 05:47

Constant misrepresentation is this users MO.

I just scroll past the poster's comments as they are no more than shit-stirring.

CornishPasty82 · 23/06/2018 06:05

Op, this is no evidence against unisex toilets at all. Sadly, women and children (!!!) are already being filmed (very rarely fortunately in single sex spaces. It is easy enough for men to gain access to these spaces when nobody is there/if they are the cleaner or caretaker or pretend to be such person. Single sex toilets isn’t going to prevent this sick habit, and there is no evidence that having unisex toilets will encourage it.

womanformallyknownaswoman · 23/06/2018 06:16

Great post OP - highlighting the real, present dangers 51% of the population face. And the vileness of the men who would use such equipment.

Of course, single-sex facilities are necessary - if the 0.6 want unisex they can make their own case for extra instead of appropriating scarce women-only spaces. If they wanted women's support, they would have had a very different approach ie trying to get women onside instead of alienating them.

What strikes me about the content of many of the pro-changesex camp is their lack of empathy for the grave risks facing children and teens using toilets etc - they should be protected not left as prey. And mothers and fathers know best in this regard.

Constant misrepresentation is this users MO.
I just scroll past the poster's comments as they are no more than shit-stirring.

Any comment with their name on I know they have obfuscated information and made unvalidated assertions to cause offence and provoke - ignore

thebewilderness · 23/06/2018 06:19

Why bother with laws when men will just break them.
Meanwhile the UN is trying to get sex segregated facilities built so that women and girls can participate in the public sphere with fewer rapes.

Pratchet · 23/06/2018 06:19

Cornish: Why wouldn't it encourage it when men would have 100 per cent access to toilets with impunity to toilets that women use? Your comment makes no sense tbh.

Gentlygently · 23/06/2018 07:12

My position is I want to be clear what any sign on the toilet means. If it says women I want it to be single sex. If it includes self-Id ‘women’ it should be labelled unisex. That way I do the correct risk assessment before entering.

Lichtie · 23/06/2018 07:33

HaXXor don't just assume you it's men that do this. Last news story I read was of a women doing it and selling the videos to make money.

Looked at the website, creative bunch that lot... I also like how they sell spy camera detectors to cover both markets, scumbags trying to make money from those trying to protect themselves from the products they sell in the first place.

Pratchet · 23/06/2018 07:40

Are you saying we should share toilets with men because a woman did it?

Lichtie · 23/06/2018 07:46

No. I'm saying don't assume there is extra safety, or layers of cheese because you are in a woman only space, still be vigilant.

Lichtie · 23/06/2018 07:48

A lot of the people caught doing these things seem to turn out to be staff who can come and go as they please when the facilities are shut.

PermissionToSpeakSir · 23/06/2018 07:56

A lot of the people caught doing these things seem to turn out to be staff who can come and go as they please when the facilities are shut.

As things currently stand. With unisex everything, these pervs won't have the hassle of getting cleaner jobs to act out their pervy disgustingness - they can operate freely.

Their numbers are definitely going to go up without the swiss cheese layer of needing to get that specific job.

PermissionToSpeakSir · 23/06/2018 07:57

I don't think the title of the OP needs changing. It is completely clear you mean not only unisex.

AngryAttackKittens · 23/06/2018 08:06

It never ceases to amaze me how many people argue that making it easy for predators to access their victims won't lead to more predators targeting the spaces in which it's been made easier for them. Not a whole lot of understanding of human nature going on there.

PermissionToSpeakSir · 23/06/2018 08:18

Yes kittens it is strange.
Generations fight to put in protections and laws to keep us safe, then the generations who are privileged enough to live with these protections take them for granted and deem them unnecessary.

How about we get rid of vaccinations - afterall, unless there's a cure for cancer - why worry about polio and smallpox?

Why not get rid of the Thames barrier - after all it won't stop heavy rains will it?

Why not get rid of sex segregation - it doesn't stop the most determined pretators?

Muppets.

Kettlepotblackagain · 23/06/2018 08:41

Generations fight to put in protections and laws to keep us safe, then the generations who are privileged enough to live with these protections take them for granted and deem them unnecessary.

100% this.

'Women are perverts too'

'Staff can access toilets and prey on women too'

'Self identity will still mean trans people use the women's loos'

These arguments in no way correlate with the question posed!!! They are at a tangent to what is being presented.

The human race can be vile. So shall we let everyone just do as they please then? What's the point in any law?

There's no point having safeguarding in school - most children are abused within the family, so let's get rid of child protection. Children are going to be abused anyway!

The cognate dissonance is mind blowing.
I think people don't want to admit the reality of the world. On some level they know it, which is why they are continually projecting it out. But they don't want to truly absorb it.

It's like that 'open fire theory'. The truth is that open fires are dangerous to health and the environment. If you ha e an open fire you may as well be smoking a cigarette, but propels don't want it hear it. They love the atmospheric glow, the crackle of the logs, the warmth. So they simply refuse to believe it's true and find all sorts of ways to project their irritation about the truth.

The same happens when the truth is told continually in this issue. We can skirt around it all we want. The tiny minority of women that may not have good intentions, somehow is a reason to stop putting protections in place for women? It makes utter sense whatsoever.

Kettlepotblackagain · 23/06/2018 08:45

Oh dear los of typos in my last post.

Writing too furiously!!

This is the fireplace argument, applies to religion but I think a good part of it is relevant
in this debate

samharris.org/the-fireplace-delusion/

AngryAttackKittens · 23/06/2018 08:48

It's like arguing that some people will always die as a result of earthquakes, so there's no point having building codes that try to minimize damage during a quake as much as possible and emergency warning systems.

womanformallyknownaswoman · 23/06/2018 08:52

Some will say anything to get their way - words are easy - critical thinking comes harder

AngryAttackKittens · 23/06/2018 08:54

Some car crashes will always be fatal, so why make laws that people have to wear seatbelts?

PermissionToSpeakSir · 23/06/2018 08:55

Thanks kettle its so true - that article made me lol, people really are resistent to having the damage caused by the things that bring them warmth and comfort pointed out. It's a great analogy.

PermissionToSpeakSir · 23/06/2018 08:59

Indeed woman and kittens

Kettlepotblackagain · 23/06/2018 08:59

Some will say anything to get their way - words are easy - critical thinking comes harder

One of the hardest things I have realised and have had to accept in my adult life, is how some people create their own reality and truly believe it.

I'm sure there are psychologists and Drs who can explain why this happens. I guess it's some kind of coping and defence mechanism when you come up against an uncomfortable truth.

Some people do not want to think. It must be a wonderful state of mind to be in, if you have a brain that simply states everything you believe is true, and if something comes along that does not fit with that, it can be dismissed or projected back. You must live in a bubble much of the time.

This is why we have to keep saying no, no, no. We can't allow this group of people, whom it seems a significant amount create their own narrative and want to shove that narrative on others, are able to dictate what goes on.

This is why there can be no negotiation.

PermissionToSpeakSir · 23/06/2018 09:06

Agreed kettle

I have been driven to despair by people who refuse to believe victims and would rather blame them, than have their belief that 'he's a good lad' challenged, or whatever.

It is all about maintaining the status quo.

Don't tell me that my heros are rapists or wifebeaters. .. those women are just stupid attention-seeking gold diggers who deserved it.

Ahh. . That's better, nothing challenged, I can go to sleep easily in my bed.

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