Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The New Equality Act (according to Betty) 2018 - what do y'all think?

131 replies

BettyDuMonde · 21/06/2018 22:21

This began as a post in Daimbars Self ID thread but it grew so big I figured I would put it in a post of it’s own!

......

It occurs to me that the reason I have, up til now, been very sympathetic to the trans cause, and been willing to look for some kind of negotiated middle ground, is because I have been thinking of the wonderful transfolk in my life, and how they pose no danger to me nor my children, and how the absolute last thing I would want is for them to have harder lives than they do already.
I haven’t posted anything gender critical on my social media, because I wouldn’t want to upset any of my trans chums, nor my friends who have trans partners.

This afternoon I’ve concluded that I’ve got to stop thinking this way.

It’s not about MY trans friends, it’s not about MY comfort.

My trans friends are kind, thoughtful, quiet, attempting to fly under the radar, not trying to break down barriers and insert themselves into spaces they know are not their spaces.

I’m a weightlifting, brick removing, tree pruning, able bodied, educated, heterosexual, married woman who isn’t at risk of homelessness, drug addiction or domestic violence.

But, as we know NATALT, and lots of women are far more vulnerable than me.

So, with all that in mind, here is my current position on how we reform both GRA2004 and EA2010, whilst both preserving women’s sex based rights AND making the lives of transfolk easier.

Firstly:

No to Self ID that allows male born people to co opt the legal designation of ‘woman’ or ‘female’
No to accessing ANY of the places or positions allocated only for women.
No changing birth records, no hiding of criminal pasts.
No to competing in women’s sports.
No standing on AWSL
No policing of the language women use to describe their own bodies and their own experiences.
No to conflating sex and gender,
Statistics to be compiled based on birth sex for everyone AND adopted gender by those that have one.
Options to request medical examinations or airport pat downs etc be carried out by people sharing your birth sex. Options for professionals to refuse to provide medical examinations or airport pat downs to those of the opposite sex.

No negotiating. No changes to the above to be made without consultation with women and women’s advocacy groups.

***

However - yes to Self ID that gives you legal protection for your adopted gender and gender presentation - no need for a medical diagnosis, it can be like deedpoll.

Yes to a selection of theoretical genders to chose from (none of which can be named man/woman/girl/boy/male/female - these terms are to be used to describe biological sex alone) to be decided by the community who will be adopting them.

Yes to gender protections against discrimination, in the workplace, in housing, in healthcare.

yes to exemptions that allow for those with the legally registered characteristic of adopted gender to provide services and spaces that exclude people who do not share the self id’d legal characteristic of adopted gender. Yes to sports and facilities for adopted gender people as well as access to single sex spaces based on your biological sex.

Yes to schemes that work towards proportional representation for adopted gender people in public office,

Yes to safe, secure, appropriate spaces for adopted gender people in the prison system.

Yes to statutory time off work for health care appointments that relate directly to your adopted gender needs (although the self ID system will mean some adopted gender people will not be attending specific healthcare appointments. Those that are can prove their entitlement by doctors certification (similar to how pregnant women prove entitlement to maternity protections).

Yes to properly funded, in-depth and ongoing research projects relating to adopted gender people to ensure any existing inequalities are identified and addressed. Priorities should be decided by the community (I believe the things that most worry TRA are currently suicide rates and violence against transwomen of colour?)

Any future changes to these provisions must be made in consultation with those that have registered for this characteristic and their advocacy groups.

…..

Current Gender Recognition Certificate holders could choose to retain their current legal status for life or transfer to the new protected characteristic of adopted gender, depending on their personal preference. No more GRCs to be issued.

....

Basically, separate sex and gender completely - protect both against discrimination, but sex remains forever as observed at birth (with the current extra time for doctors to diagnose intersex conditions prior to registering the birth retained).

Everyone has the protected characteristic of sex, gender is an optional extra with minimum gate keeping that adults can sign up to just prior to turning 18 (so when you sign up to vote).
You can sign up any time from just-before-18 onwards and it’s free the first time. If you want to change it again you have to pay an admin fee (same as you do when you get a new passport etc). Titles relating to adopted gender (to replace Mr/Ms etc) can be part of the same process.

Anyone wanting to access single sex spaces based on their birth sex should be prepared to show ID if requested. This could work much like showing age ID to buy booze. You may or may not be asked for it dependent on whether the service provider requests it, but if you ARE asked to present it and you are unable to do so, the service/access can be refused.

People whose appearance is somewhat unusual for their birth sex will likely need to carry their proof, much the way those who appear young need to carry their ID when wanting to purchase age restricted items. Obviously, if you don’t plan on accessing stuff reserved for your birth sex, you won’t need to carry it. Your privacy will be legally protected and you will not be compelled to show it to anyone when you are not accessing things reserved only for your birth sex (excepting on request by law enforcement officials).

If you wish to participate in sex segregated sports reserved for your birth sex, but have received medical treatments that might be considered performance enhancing (testosterone, for example) you must be willing to participate in tests or assessments and/or provide medical evidence if it is requested. You may be refused participation on this basis (rules to be decided by individual sporting bodies. Decisions can be appealed/referred for second opinions). In some circumstances there may be the option to enter ‘open’ categories or specific categories for gender variant people, where they exist)

……

Minors - anything divided by sex in school should be divided via birth sex and gender stereotypes should be minimised - all uniform items should be suitable for all school activity but individual items should be freely chosen by pupils themselves without traditional restrictions (boys can wear skirts, girls can wear trousers/shorts etc). Children must not be told that ‘changing sex’ is possible, but instead should be encouraged to research and explore the various gender options that will become available at adulthood, and the option of having no adopted gender should be given equal weighting.

Dysphoric or distressed children should be able to access private changing/toileting facilities on request, and have their mental health needs properly supported by professionals inside and outside the school environment. Guidance for schools regarding dysphoric pupils should be vetted by Tavistock and Portland and regularly updated.

.......

Am I getting somewhere? What have I missed?

OP posts:
Macareaux · 21/06/2018 23:33

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Agrona · 22/06/2018 00:09

Sorry. Some of these statements contavene of the rules of Misogyny and because of this will not be accepted.

However, I think they are a good start.

CharlieParley · 22/06/2018 00:43

Thanks for posting this Betty. You've obviously put a lot of thought into it and have come up with a few ideas I hadn't thought of myself.

I was a bit like you in that at the very beginning, before I understood more about the trans umbrella and who is now included as trans, I didn't actually have any issues with sharing spaces like toilets or changing rooms with transsexuals.

However, like you, I have come to understand that I don't have the right - no individual has the right - to give up the protections afforded to an entire class of people. It's something that can and should only be done after proper impact assessments involving as many different people of the class affected, making sure that those consulted represent a very wide range of people from that class.

Which means I can't ignore the fact that there are groups of women out there for whom male-bodied people in sex-segregated spaces cause a problem, for a number of different reasons.

BettyDuMonde · 22/06/2018 00:43

Macareaux - Grin

I'm aiming for rational and fair!

If a rational and fair, real-world workable solution, recognisable as such by both the general public and government can be identified, refusal of said solution would indeed lead most people to assume that TRA must have an agenda that isn't actually about equality at all.

OP posts:
loveyouradvice · 22/06/2018 00:53

Betty I am with you....

It has always felt strange to me that we are entering a world of gender-fluidity and that the most traditional genders of all are having just two....

So totally believe things that need to be sex-segregated should be and THIS SHOULD NOT CHANGE and if it does women and girls lose out ... and that those who want to identify into whatever gender they want, should be able to do so: but realistically what would this mean?

Anything to encourage stereotypes to be broken down and children growing up to recognise they can be anyone they want - while still being a boy or a girl

mancheeze · 22/06/2018 01:53

I like this list. Will ponder more later.

BettyDuMonde · 22/06/2018 04:51

I found this on the Beaumount society website - most of it is stuff I had included - interestingly, despite the 2004 act making promises re: accessing facilities based on a trans persons acquired gender and those promises not being kept, there is no demand to access women’s spaces (despite legal entitlement). Rather they ask for more third spaces.

I will look at it more closely when I have some time, but the things that are currently standing out are 1) Prisons. Currently, it’s a bit woolly - the 2004 act entitles access to the estate that matches acquired gender, but in practise this often does not happen. My plan would replace this entitlement with specific provisions such as separate trans units on the birth sex estate. As long as the outcome is greater safety and dignity for all prisoners, I don’t believe there is a conflict. Obviously people with an existing GRC would retain their current legal entitlement, but I reading this I would imagine that for many that specialist housing would be preferred.anyway. The new multiple choices of adopted gender would demand changes here anyway.

  1. Nursing homes - this is something I hadn’t thought of but of course older trans people deserve to be treated appropriately and respectfully. I don’t know much about how these currently work in terms of sex segregation so I will look it up. I think we could probably add something about being appropriately cared for at home here too.

  2. Spousal veto. This would automatically disappear with the end of the current GRC anyway. Adopted gender via self ID wouldn’t require spousal permission. Need to have a think about how to give spouses/‘trans widows’ support and autonomy and what sorts of issues they are likely to face.

Absolutely heartened to see that the Beaumont Society are not playing silly games with language, and that they know the difference between bio sex and gender as well as we do.

www.beaumontsociety.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/SubmissiontoCommons.pdf

OP posts:
Rufustheyawningreindeer · 22/06/2018 08:25

I like it betty

I would vote for it, i dont really see what would be wrong with it so hearing some different opinions would be great

BettyDuMonde · 22/06/2018 14:20

The thread about gender neutral passports being shot down by the courts has some stuff that could be added - for instance, if we insist on birth sex being on the passport, then an additional marker could be added for those with the additional adopted gender characteristic.

All of these could be made invisible until held under security lights, to protect the privacy and dignity of trans people.

Have asked HomefromtheHills for their input and for suggestions of sensible trans support and advocacy groups in addition to Beaumont Society.

I really think presenting a logical solution that protects everyone’s dignity and privacy is the only way we are going to convince the MPs who are currently dismissing women as bigoted or misinformed!

OP posts:
sexnotgender · 22/06/2018 14:24

Looks pretty good to me.

LadyLance · 22/06/2018 14:34

I agree- it looks pretty good to me. I am all in favour of third spaces for people who don't feel like they fit in either box. I am all in favour of people being able to present how they like- men can wear make up, heels, whatever clothes they like... women can choose not to perform femininity- everyone should feel safe and valued and protected. But same sex protections should be kept.

FWIW I would add that any statistics need to either be separated by birth sex, or male/female/third group. Including people who have self ID'd into their "chosen gender" will fuck up statistics for everyone. I think statistics on victimhood/committing crime and career based statistics are especially important to keep separate (crime because different groups may be victimised differently and we need to know how best to protect them, and also to see if there are dangerous individuals in a particular groups- career statistics because trans people and women will face different kinds of discrimination and probably follow different career trajectories in the workplace). It is probably also important/useful to keep health statistics separate.

BettyDuMonde · 22/06/2018 14:40

I have got statistics being compiled using birth sex in the top ‘non negotiable’ part already but I really like your expansion. Eventually I will make this into a printable document with footnotes for references - I will add your expansion to the footnotes, if that’s ok with you?

Having seen some of the responses coming back from MPs, it’s clear that most of them know very little about any of these issues, often not understanding the difference between sex and gender, and certainly not understanding how the differences work in relation to the 2010 act.

OP posts:
Sillydoggy · 22/06/2018 14:43

I like it. You could do with a section on healthcare.

LadyLance · 22/06/2018 14:52

Sorry, yes you do! I'm glad you like my explanation! Feel free to use it/part of it at any time @BettyDuMonde

BettyDuMonde · 22/06/2018 15:02

Thanks! I have ‘no discrimination in workplace, housing & healthcare’ but I can see an expansion to healthcare would be useful.

I would love to hear some transfolk’s voices on this, either directly or via info published by advocacy groups.

I can add the stuff about appropriate residential and home care and ensuring dignity for older trans people as flagged up by the Beaumont society to an expanded healthcare section.

What about women’s stuff? Should we add misogyny being recorded as a hate crime? Is there anything around maternity rights we’d like updating?
Should I add something about the need to avoid conflict between religious rights and trans rights and how the separate sex and gender categories will help avoid that?
I have no religion, so I would very much welcome input by women who will be affected or are from communities that will be affected.

OP posts:
stealthsquirrelnutkin · 22/06/2018 15:06

Thanks Betty, I heartily approve of the proposal, and appreciate the thought that went into it.

It seems to me that this proposal is exactly what the Women's Equality Party should be getting behind. It gives equal weight to the rights of transpeople and those of women and girls.

Also that it needs to be disseminated amongst the groups of women meeting locally to discuss the impact of proposed reforms. Can we make it into a downloadable leaflet and stick it on the web so that we can link to it from social media? I can also see how a print out would be useful as a discussion base when raising the topic with friends who are still oblivious to the current situation.

BettyDuMonde · 22/06/2018 15:12

Absolutely! Let’s keep working on it and get it as comprehensive as we can.

We can then rearrange it with some bullet points (for those in a hurry!) followed by an expanded text with footnotes and then some further reading references.

OP posts:
OlennasWimple · 22/06/2018 15:23

I like it (and meant to say so on the other thread, but it rather went off in a different direction....)

One drum I've been banging for ages is about healthcare records, statistics and research

We are entering unchartered territories, with significant numbers of people taking drugs for a long time, and we need to understand the impact of this in order to improve the healthcare offered to trans people.

For example, it could be that lupron has significant side effects that lead to an increase in breast cancer but offer protection against other diseases such as Alzheimers but only for bio males (I'm plucking stuff out of the air for illustrative purposes). If we don't record this stuff properly, we won't have the data available to analyse - surely even the most ardent TRA wants to see improvements to the medical care and interventions that are available?

Snappity · 22/06/2018 15:34

www.unfe.org/love-desmond-tutu/

Archbishop Desmond Tutu now opposes discrimination against LGB people with the same passion he once had against Apartheid. It is easy to extrapolate that he would feel the same way against anyone who tries to stop trans people using spaces according to their identity.

Picassospaintbrush · 22/06/2018 15:59

Poor show Snappity. Very poor show.

Have you absolutely no limits in what you will say?

OlennasWimple · 22/06/2018 16:24

Nice attempt at a de-rail there, Snappity.

Now, what about a new Equality Act? What should it contain?

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 22/06/2018 18:52

Extrapolate

Expand

Are they just posh words for make shit up?

BeUpStanding · 22/06/2018 19:20

Excellent work BettyDuMonde! Personally I don't understand what these 'gender identities' could be if they are decoupled from male/female, but I very much admire and appreciate your efforts in finding a workable solution for all.

UpstartCrow · 22/06/2018 19:30

BettyDuMonde You've put more thought into that version that a lot of politicians and activists. Your version makes sense, it doesn't seem to have any competing rights.

Snappity · 22/06/2018 19:40

A solution which claims that some women aren't really women - and then denies them their rights - because they don't meet your idea of physical perfection is highly regressive and no solution.