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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The New Equality Act (according to Betty) 2018 - what do y'all think?

131 replies

BettyDuMonde · 21/06/2018 22:21

This began as a post in Daimbars Self ID thread but it grew so big I figured I would put it in a post of it’s own!

......

It occurs to me that the reason I have, up til now, been very sympathetic to the trans cause, and been willing to look for some kind of negotiated middle ground, is because I have been thinking of the wonderful transfolk in my life, and how they pose no danger to me nor my children, and how the absolute last thing I would want is for them to have harder lives than they do already.
I haven’t posted anything gender critical on my social media, because I wouldn’t want to upset any of my trans chums, nor my friends who have trans partners.

This afternoon I’ve concluded that I’ve got to stop thinking this way.

It’s not about MY trans friends, it’s not about MY comfort.

My trans friends are kind, thoughtful, quiet, attempting to fly under the radar, not trying to break down barriers and insert themselves into spaces they know are not their spaces.

I’m a weightlifting, brick removing, tree pruning, able bodied, educated, heterosexual, married woman who isn’t at risk of homelessness, drug addiction or domestic violence.

But, as we know NATALT, and lots of women are far more vulnerable than me.

So, with all that in mind, here is my current position on how we reform both GRA2004 and EA2010, whilst both preserving women’s sex based rights AND making the lives of transfolk easier.

Firstly:

No to Self ID that allows male born people to co opt the legal designation of ‘woman’ or ‘female’
No to accessing ANY of the places or positions allocated only for women.
No changing birth records, no hiding of criminal pasts.
No to competing in women’s sports.
No standing on AWSL
No policing of the language women use to describe their own bodies and their own experiences.
No to conflating sex and gender,
Statistics to be compiled based on birth sex for everyone AND adopted gender by those that have one.
Options to request medical examinations or airport pat downs etc be carried out by people sharing your birth sex. Options for professionals to refuse to provide medical examinations or airport pat downs to those of the opposite sex.

No negotiating. No changes to the above to be made without consultation with women and women’s advocacy groups.

***

However - yes to Self ID that gives you legal protection for your adopted gender and gender presentation - no need for a medical diagnosis, it can be like deedpoll.

Yes to a selection of theoretical genders to chose from (none of which can be named man/woman/girl/boy/male/female - these terms are to be used to describe biological sex alone) to be decided by the community who will be adopting them.

Yes to gender protections against discrimination, in the workplace, in housing, in healthcare.

yes to exemptions that allow for those with the legally registered characteristic of adopted gender to provide services and spaces that exclude people who do not share the self id’d legal characteristic of adopted gender. Yes to sports and facilities for adopted gender people as well as access to single sex spaces based on your biological sex.

Yes to schemes that work towards proportional representation for adopted gender people in public office,

Yes to safe, secure, appropriate spaces for adopted gender people in the prison system.

Yes to statutory time off work for health care appointments that relate directly to your adopted gender needs (although the self ID system will mean some adopted gender people will not be attending specific healthcare appointments. Those that are can prove their entitlement by doctors certification (similar to how pregnant women prove entitlement to maternity protections).

Yes to properly funded, in-depth and ongoing research projects relating to adopted gender people to ensure any existing inequalities are identified and addressed. Priorities should be decided by the community (I believe the things that most worry TRA are currently suicide rates and violence against transwomen of colour?)

Any future changes to these provisions must be made in consultation with those that have registered for this characteristic and their advocacy groups.

…..

Current Gender Recognition Certificate holders could choose to retain their current legal status for life or transfer to the new protected characteristic of adopted gender, depending on their personal preference. No more GRCs to be issued.

....

Basically, separate sex and gender completely - protect both against discrimination, but sex remains forever as observed at birth (with the current extra time for doctors to diagnose intersex conditions prior to registering the birth retained).

Everyone has the protected characteristic of sex, gender is an optional extra with minimum gate keeping that adults can sign up to just prior to turning 18 (so when you sign up to vote).
You can sign up any time from just-before-18 onwards and it’s free the first time. If you want to change it again you have to pay an admin fee (same as you do when you get a new passport etc). Titles relating to adopted gender (to replace Mr/Ms etc) can be part of the same process.

Anyone wanting to access single sex spaces based on their birth sex should be prepared to show ID if requested. This could work much like showing age ID to buy booze. You may or may not be asked for it dependent on whether the service provider requests it, but if you ARE asked to present it and you are unable to do so, the service/access can be refused.

People whose appearance is somewhat unusual for their birth sex will likely need to carry their proof, much the way those who appear young need to carry their ID when wanting to purchase age restricted items. Obviously, if you don’t plan on accessing stuff reserved for your birth sex, you won’t need to carry it. Your privacy will be legally protected and you will not be compelled to show it to anyone when you are not accessing things reserved only for your birth sex (excepting on request by law enforcement officials).

If you wish to participate in sex segregated sports reserved for your birth sex, but have received medical treatments that might be considered performance enhancing (testosterone, for example) you must be willing to participate in tests or assessments and/or provide medical evidence if it is requested. You may be refused participation on this basis (rules to be decided by individual sporting bodies. Decisions can be appealed/referred for second opinions). In some circumstances there may be the option to enter ‘open’ categories or specific categories for gender variant people, where they exist)

……

Minors - anything divided by sex in school should be divided via birth sex and gender stereotypes should be minimised - all uniform items should be suitable for all school activity but individual items should be freely chosen by pupils themselves without traditional restrictions (boys can wear skirts, girls can wear trousers/shorts etc). Children must not be told that ‘changing sex’ is possible, but instead should be encouraged to research and explore the various gender options that will become available at adulthood, and the option of having no adopted gender should be given equal weighting.

Dysphoric or distressed children should be able to access private changing/toileting facilities on request, and have their mental health needs properly supported by professionals inside and outside the school environment. Guidance for schools regarding dysphoric pupils should be vetted by Tavistock and Portland and regularly updated.

.......

Am I getting somewhere? What have I missed?

OP posts:
BettyDuMonde · 23/06/2018 10:13

Screenshot of U.K. divorce info:

The New Equality Act (according to Betty) 2018 - what do y'all think?
OP posts:
ClareFlourish · 23/06/2018 10:21

As a trans woman I am not against third spaces. Where I see "Gender neutral toilet" I will use that one- there's rarely a queue! I have never had a problem in toilets. So, what happens where there is no third space? At the moment, I understand that some women might be revolted by the thought of me in women's loos- transitioned over a decade, still have a Y chromosome, trying not to stand out- but how often is anyone here actually revolted because they see an actual trans woman in a woman's loo? That is, are we talking about a real problem, or just theory?

How often have people here seen a trans woman they did not know in a woman's loo? Beyond being there, did they do anything offensive?

BettyDuMonde · 23/06/2018 10:36

Clare, I’m not revolted, but also, I’m not particularly vulnerable!
The current thread on here re: cameras in loos flags up lots of issues, but it’s not pleasant reading, so steel yourself if you decide to read it.

The problem at the moment is that transfolk have no idea what’s actually expected of them, because the laws were made in a patchy way and sometimes conflict each other.

We need a clear system, and more ‘anyone’ spaces, in addition to the single sex ones (it took a law change to get disabled WCs so let’s do it here too).

Thanks for engaging - please keep adding anything you can think of!

...........

Re: what the new gender markers might be, well, I’d suggest ‘transfemine’ ‘transmasculine’ and ‘non binary’ as the start point but there could be more, or better ones.

Colloquially, people would remain transman/ transwoman but the legal language needs to be clearer, I think.

OP posts:
PermissionToSpeakSir · 23/06/2018 10:37

How often have people here seen a trans woman they did not know in a woman's loo?

Too be fair, not often, but it did make make me feel uncomfortable, defensive and angry at the sense of entitlement to violate a space I expect to be private for women and girls - it is not meant for males, whether or not they have complex personal issues.

Angryresister · 23/06/2018 10:43

We can tell most of the time but have tolerated men in toilets because we have been trained to be nice and kind. However it does make us uncomfortable and all women and girls, given a choice would use the sex segregated one, and hope there was a third option for the people that are not women or girls or that would prefer not to be.

PermissionToSpeakSir · 23/06/2018 10:45

how often is anyone here actually revolted because they see an actual trans woman in a woman's loo?

The word 'revolted' is very manipulative.

The reason males are led to believe women don't mind them accessing our spaces, is because women are socialised to defer to males, suppress our discomfort and make males feel better.

There is no reason for a male to not use the men's if there is no unisex facilities available. Their respect for women should outweigh their own potential feelings of embarrassment because another male is more likely to take the piss out of them than a woman is.

It is unfair for them to abuse the social ease with which they, as males, push women around.

Baroquehavoc · 23/06/2018 10:48

We all know why sex segregation is important, it doesn't need spelling out on FWR. It amazes me that people see needing sex segregation as a character flaw.

Angryresister · 23/06/2018 10:50

There are some really good points in the OP which I will look at more thoroughly . THank you for spending the time on getting this together. I do think men determined to break though boundaries that women put up whether for fetish or mysogynistic reasons, will continue to do so. I think that from now on the fact of having had surgery or hormones shouldn't mean you are entitled to a GRC. The practice of changing documents seems to be a nonsense at the moment, which clearly can be exploited and is . A third sex seems to be the best way forward....Trans not male or female. With as op suggests , birth sex plus another indicator. And crime statistics reported accordingly.

Italiangreyhound · 23/06/2018 11:01

@ClareFlourish 'The people who agree with you that sex stereotypes are harmful, are trans people and our allies.'

If this really were true why would parents be 'diagnosing' their children on the basis of the clothes they want to wear and the toys they play with?

Why would teenage girls be aspiring to have their breasts removed and be seen as boys if members of the trans community were not making videos about how they are really boys trapped in female bodies?

Note I say 'members of the trans community', I know not everyone is saying the same thing.

ClareFlourish · 23/06/2018 11:15

Here's a loo story, then. I was at a conference and had just had a long passionate discussion with a feminist telling me how women might be frightened of me in loos. Then I went to the large loo, over twenty stalls, which was crowded, and was drying my hands at the dryer. I was staring at the wall, not wanting to be noticed, wanting to get out, when someone waved her hand in front of my face: she was glad to see me, she wanted to say hello. It freaked me. For a lot of people, trans in loos is not a big deal.

PermissionToSpeakSir · 23/06/2018 11:18

clare you'll have to clarify why that anecdote is relevant.

PermissionToSpeakSir · 23/06/2018 11:22

I was staring at the wall, not wanting to be noticed, wanting to get out

Why not do this in the men's?

You never know, a friend might be glad to bump into you in there.

ClareFlourish · 23/06/2018 11:40

PTSS, why is that anecdote relevant? Because not everyone is uncomfortable, defensive and angry, though also not everyone is fair, pointing out it does not happen often.

To a tiny number of people, this issue is very important. But even to them, more important in theory than in practice.

No trans person, or parent, is going to "diagnose" a child based on clothing preferences. For those of us with gender dysphoria, gender identity is very real. We are diagnosed on the basis of that.

Many people with some gender dysphoria do not transition, because of family circumstances or work, or physical characteristics- all sorts of reasons. They find gender stereotypes painful. I empathise with them, and with people considering transition. Transition is difficult and costly. It took all my attention. No-one is saying "Come on in, the water's lovely". We're saying, if transition is right for you, you should be able to do it. So, yes, opposing gender stereotyping would make trans lives a great deal easier. The Times Mail and Spectator, now publishing some articles which some people here approve of, want to reinforce those stereotypes.

PermissionToSpeakSir · 23/06/2018 11:47

PTSS, why is that anecdote relevant? Because not everyone is uncomfortable, defensive and angry

Indeed, different people have different boundaries.

It doesn't mean that it is acceptable to use the facilities designated for the opposite sex.

PermissionToSpeakSir · 23/06/2018 11:51

The Times Mail and Spectator, now publishing some articles which some people here approve of, want to reinforce those stereotypes.

It has not escaped anyone's notice that the evangelists of trans ideology have strategically colonised the left, including left-wing publications.

ClareFlourish · 23/06/2018 12:29

"Colonised the Left"? Not the Morning Star, or even the Guardian, which has published on both sides. Peace News is nuanced too. How could we "colonise the Left"? People see what the human rights lawyers are saying, they appreciate diversity, they make up their own minds. "Trans activists" could not achieve by themselves what Stonewall, an LGBT organisation led by a lesbian, has achieved for us.

The motivations are different. Second wave feminism opposes the patriarchy and ways women are oppressed. I learn from it. The Right wants to shut down diversity and tolerance, create out-groups, and reinforce gender stereotypes. That is why they mock and demonise trans people.

Thank you. Your "To be fair" makes me want to engage. How can we not be on opposing sides? Is there anything we could work for together? Gender neutral third spaces are one thing-

Snappity · 23/06/2018 12:40

"italiangreyhound - we’re in agreement really - sex and gender need to be enshrined in law as separate, the fact they aren’t right now is why my plan involves going back to the drawing board and seperating the two."

So, Betty, how do you define sex?

PeakPants · 23/06/2018 12:48

Clare what is your view on third spaces and specific services for trans people? It would be very good and interesting to get a trans woman perspective on this. I am kind of ignoring Snappity’s quite extreme comments. Would you be happy to use these services, especially if some non-trans people also used them? Or is it important to you to use single sex female services? I do understand that you don’t want to use male facilities by the way.

PermissionToSpeakSir · 23/06/2018 13:02

How can we not be on opposing sides? Is there anything we could work for together? Gender neutral third spaces are one thing

Working to repeal the GRA, to strengthen the sex exemptions in the EA, remove the 'case by case basis' clause, to promote greater tolerance for gender non-conformity, to challenge male entitlement, male violence, etc.

I am more for fighting for more female exclusive provision, because I prioritise women and girls, but if you fight for additional mixed spaces (which dont eat into provision for women and girls) i'll support you.

EmpressOfSpartacus · 23/06/2018 13:51

Janice Turner, for one, has been calling out both left and right about this.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/how-do-you-solve-a-problem-like-men-in-women-s-changing-rooms-maria-v3hhxmk3p?shareToken=5ad11314d846efec0ba7c938e86d0980

OlennasWimple · 23/06/2018 14:11

Working to repeal the GRA, to strengthen the sex exemptions in the EA, remove the 'case by case basis' clause, to promote greater tolerance for gender non-conformity, to challenge male entitlement, male violence, etc.

I am more for fighting for more female exclusive provision, because I prioritise women and girls, but if you fight for additional mixed spaces (which dont eat into provision for women and girls) i'll support you

Me too. I would love to see a handful of examples where men's facilities or provisions had been co-opted by transmen. But so often - and I suspect this is what raises such strong feelings on this board, and why so much of the discussion is about transwomen - it is women who are being asked to budge up or share our single sex spaces, whether that is our toilets (always about the toilets!), prisons, all women shortlists, awards, funding, youth organisations, sport or swimming pools.*

"Gender neutral" or "unisex" shouldn't mean "Woman and men who don't want to use the gents", whilst the men retain their single sex provision without really noticing that anything has changed

*TBF, ManFriday is doing sterling work on the swimming pool issue

Baroquehavoc · 23/06/2018 14:39

I am more for fighting for more female exclusive provision, because I prioritise women and girls, but if you fight for additional mixed spaces (which dont eat into provision for women and girls) i'll support you

I feel the same.

I'm not sure why it necessary to work together? We are different people with different needs.

I'm sure some feminist would work alongside transpeople if that didn't compromise the needs and wants of women and girls.

PermissionToSpeakSir · 23/06/2018 15:00

I'm not sure why it necessary to work together? We are different people with different needs.

Yes I am looking forward to the point when we can stop fighting against the erosion of our rights by trans activism and start being more visionary and progressive again - focus on equality, ending violence, getting justice, representation, health care...the list is long and the needs are pressing...

Italiangreyhound · 23/06/2018 15:22

@BettyDuMonde this is a helpful way of thinking of it....

'Re: what the new gender markers might be, well, I’d suggest ‘transfemine’ ‘transmasculine’ and ‘non binary’ as the start point but there could be more, or better ones.

Colloquially, people would remain transman/ transwoman but the legal language needs to be clearer, I think.'

'However,...

'italiangreyhound - we’re in agreement really - sex and gender need to be enshrined in law as separate'

But how are you going to enshrine gender, what terms will you get to agree on?

The proposition is massive, in your opening post, will you get anyone to even read it? As I said I am the negative voice because it is all too long and I think despite listing what we want I am not sure others will see why we need it.

ClareFlourish · 23/06/2018 15:24

PeakPants Personally I am in favour of third spaces. I understand not all transwomen (oops) feel that way. I tend not to go to swimming pools- I found my local pool too warm and got out of the habit.

I feel it is necessary to work together because, with creative thinking, what we have in common is greater than what drives us apart. Betty knows all these nice trans women, but perceives trans women are nasty from the internet. The answer is to know more trans women as friends.