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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Lisa Muggeridge Suspended by Twitter and Quoting her breaches MN Guidelines

353 replies

R0wantrees · 20/06/2018 22:22

I posted news that another woman has been suspended by Twitter. This seems likely as a result of targetted mass reports

Lisa Muggeridge comments at idgeofreason.wordpress.com

& recently spoke at the Inconvenient Women: We Need to Talk meeting in London.

I posted the quote by Lisa because it concerns me that women are being silenced.

My background is English Literature so my style is to leave a writer's words for others to read for themselves.

There were a number of apparent attempts to derail the thread and so when this happened, I quoted further comment by Lisa Muggeridge. To let her words speak.

I believe in the importance of free speech.

I have many books on my bookshelf, which I am sure may have contentious comments in. I don't though believe that books are dangerous or should be burned.

I also read authors who had serious failings.

I wasn't advised that there was an issue with the OP but understand that within the quoted comment was misgendering.

I felt that it was not for me to edit Lisa Muggeridge's words.

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Thread gallery
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R0wantrees · 21/06/2018 11:59

Lisa Muggeridge comments:

"Any trans woman who wants..
1.Subordination of women.

2.Women forced to say things that are not true.

3.Wants access to domestic abuse victims and rape victims, and those women subordinated to them.

4.Wants access to female spaces and does not see why female consent matters.

  1. Defines themselves as a lesbian to give themselves the right to sexually abuse and coerce lesbians.

6, Is triggered or injured by hearing about the reality of female experience and biology.

Every trans woman who wants or demonstrates these things, is telling you they are not only male but an abusive male and a risk to women and girls."

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Datun · 21/06/2018 11:59

Whatever Lisa Muggerage has or hasn't done, she is certainly still getting her voice heard. There are 12 million unique users on mumsnet, predominantly women.

Lisa was on my periphery until this business.

Having read the quotes here, I think she is magnificent.

TellsEveryoneRealFacts · 21/06/2018 12:00

It's like Deja vu all over again, and weirdly the only thing that Grizzlygrox is currently posting about.

Grizzlygrox · 21/06/2018 12:00

I posted a POV. Was repeatedly called on it & asked to justify/provide examples.

When I linked to the thread I was told that I was uncivil, factually incorrect and we aren’t talking about this with you any more.

You can’t repeatedly demand someone defends their POV and then accuse them of banging on about it or having an agenda when they do what you ask!

louiseaaa · 21/06/2018 12:03

Respectability has nothing to do with safeguarding

Precise, clear, robust language does. (Or speaking truth, if you like)

Less is more, no room for ambiguity. No room for interpretation. Directness over politeness if you like.

(So glad I no longer do this - I now treat my ex-colleagues for stress!!)

LangCleg · 21/06/2018 12:07

Apparently it's worse to be rude about people espousing political aims that weaken safeguarding frameworks for children than it is to espouse political aims that weaken safeguarding frameworks for children.

This view is being expressed on a website for mothers.

Let that sink in.

And then let it sink in some more.

LaSqrrl · 21/06/2018 12:08

I am clearly out of step, worrying about the very NEW technique of thread deletion, which is complete thread erasure then (no trace)?

I can see a huge fucking problem with it, why can no one else see it?

Why is there any point posting to this forum, when a thread can be disappeared without even a trace? Thread deletion is bad enough, but without even a trace of it ever existing? Are we all ok with that?

I keep trying to point out, this is a whole new level of silencing.

R0wantrees · 21/06/2018 12:09

Bowlofbabelfish

Have you followed much of what Amanda Dee (Angry Bird) has written?
She also comments & is an important voice (in my opinion)

She is quoted in the Michael Biggs article as she founded Trans Oxford as a member of the transgender community.

She decribed the bulling and harrassment of WUP as when

"the bullied became the bullies"

Her full statement is in the thread below:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3234661-Condemnation-of-the-shameful-campaign-of-bullying-intimidation-against-WPUK-meeting-by-founder-of-TransOxford

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LangCleg · 21/06/2018 12:12

Why is there any point posting to this forum, when a thread can be disappeared without even a trace? Thread deletion is bad enough, but without even a trace of it ever existing? Are we all ok with that?

You're completely right and it's a vital aspect of this thread.

It's virtual book burning.

R0wantrees · 21/06/2018 12:21

LaSqrrl

It is concerning yes.

Not least since in the midddle of the thread was a significant discussion about how vulnerable women who are homeless are being left out of considerations with the focus on female prison estates and DV Refuges.

How dangerous it is when workers with knowledge, insight and experience can be hindered by blunt legislation.

I refered the extreme example that you shared when a woman in the US was murdered & quoted your post:

"I have permission to share this story from a private FB group. I have removed the names - although I did verify this as a true story by finding him on some US prisoner look-up site (there were enough other details to work with). I can ask more questions (like, I assume this was some kind of supported accommodation). This is a quote btw, and pronouns as per the original.

I want to share more details about my homeless client who was murdered in November 2015. Her name was D-- and she was in her early 60's. She befriended an idividual in shelter in his 40's, who is a man named "C" that identifies as a woman. He had no surgical interventions and there was nothing 'feminine' about him. My job entails helping women in shelter find housing, then visiting them at least once a month until they are on their feet. D and C were neighbors and developed a close friendship. In fact, he was present when I went over safety planning with her. Having worked with the homeless population since 2005, there is little that phases me. However, C was overly vulgar, crude, vile, and just downright disgusting, as he enjoyed talking about graphic sex acts he likes to do to other men. I happened to be working one Sunday when I suddenly thought about D and called her. She did not answer and I considered going to her apartment, but decided not to. I found out the next day that she was BRUTALLY murdered by C about 45 minutes after I called her. I am told he stabbed her at least 7 times and slit her throat. Neighbors reported hearing her screaming and as she was dying, C stole her keys, locked the door, and went back to his apartment like nothing happened. There was no mention of any of it in the media and everything was swept under the rug...like she did not matter. Attaching his mugshot. Yes, he is serving a long sentence, but D-- is still dead and maybe she wouldn't be if a man had not been allowed into a woman's shelter.

So it can be a lot more than pervy behaviour, even more than sexual assault. These are the safeguards we are fighting to protect. So you pro-self-IDers can go shove it. Shower curtains stop nothing."

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3266198-No-True-Transwoman-transadvocates-question-whether-TW-is-genuine-after-said-TW-sexually-harasses-women-in-homeless-shelter

The thread is really important, with some significant cases in it.

It also demonstrates how some posters persistantly attempt to derail even when others were trying to discuss the very serious safeguarding issues concerning girls and vulnerable women.

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R0wantrees · 21/06/2018 12:37

(From Lisa Muggeridge's comment upthread)

Lisa Muggeridge Suspended by Twitter and Quoting her breaches MN Guidelines
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R0wantrees · 21/06/2018 12:48

There was an interesting thread a few months ago: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3241727-Weaponising-of-the-Complaints-Process

The OP wrote:
"What's essential is dealing with reports and complaints of any kind is discerning between a usual, a persistent and a querulant (unusually persistent) complainant.

The persistent complainants’ pursuit of vindication and retribution fits badly with complaints systems established to deliver reparation and compensation. Extract from a report on Unusually Persistent Complainants against the Police in Scotland:

The research on which this report is based arose from my view, shared by many others, that increasingly organisations are required to manage people who make persistent complaints. This small group of individuals can consume a disproportionate amount of an organisation’s resources, pursuing what they believe are legitimate complaints, for longer and with more intensity than the majority of the population would consider reasonable.

The key to managing unacceptable complainant conduct is to manage your own response to it (New South Wales Ombusdman, 2009A) and the importance of adequate training, supervision and managerial support for complaints handlers can not be overstated.

They used the term ‘querulousness’ to refer to a constellation of behaviours and attitudes, which may, or may not, arise secondary to a major mental disorder. The key is that it is a problem behaviour, the causes of which can be many and varied. The behaviour involves “the unusually persistent pursuit of a personal grievance in a manner seriously damaging to the individual’s economic, social, and personal interests, and disruptive to the functioning of the courts and/or other agencies attempting to resolve the claims” (Mullen and Lester, 2006).

The following extract is from the report in NSW referenced in the Scottish one above:

Appendix 1 – A word on unusually persistent complainants (querulants)

Querulance is a psychiatric diagnosis for people who have morbid (illness driven) complaining behaviour. These people are abnormally driven by suspicion and accusations and tend to exhibit extreme kinds of UCC. For example, when compared to a matched control group, querulants have been found to:

•Pursue their complaints for much longer than other complainants.
•Produce far greater volumes of material in support of their case.
•Telephone more frequently and for longer.
•Intrude more frequently without an appointment.
•Continue complaining after their cases have been closed.
•Engage in behaviour that was typically more difficult and intimidating.
•Involve other/external organisations more often including contacting Ministers as their complaints progress.
•Want outcomes that a complaint handling system cannot deliver – eg vindication, retribution and revenge. 


The research in this area also indicates that one of the distinguishing features of querulance is an extreme loss of focus over time that results in querulants pursuing multiple complaints at the same time and across a number of organisations as demonstrated in the charts below."

imgur.com/a/2TklcYj

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R0wantrees · 21/06/2018 13:09

James Kirkup in today's Spectator article concludes:

"I’ll end by repeating the basic facts of this story once more, in the hope that some of the politicians who talk so much about free speech and equality and fairness finally pluck up the courage to talk about this. Some women had a meeting to talk about their legal rights. Someone threatened to blow up the meeting with a bomb. The police are investigating that threat and say it is being “taken seriously”. And this happened in Britain in 2018."

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/06/why-are-women-who-discuss-gender-getting-bomb-threats/

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peachescariad · 21/06/2018 13:30

ROwan thank you, thank you for all your posts of Lisa's comments. Didn't know about her until yesterday. Love her now...watching and reading everything I can....and sharing.
New on here but I'm with you.

R0wantrees · 21/06/2018 13:43

peachescariad

I hope more people will have access to Lisa Muggeridge's comments.

Have you found Magdalen Berns' site?

Its here, definitely worth a visit and listening to her voice:
www.youtube.com/channel/UCvTTakI97sQ4SkMnsH8r0qQ

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RedToothBrush · 21/06/2018 13:44

You can quote any of the racism that Donald Trump spouts on MN.

You can not quote Lisa Mutterridge.

Lisa Mutterridge is clearly more dangerous than a man who locks children in cages and has his finger on the nuclear button.

Well done Lisa.

RedToothBrush · 21/06/2018 13:46

I love the Barbara Streistand effect.

Its wonderful.

R0wantrees · 21/06/2018 14:00

What is the Barbara Streisand affect?

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RedToothBrush · 21/06/2018 14:02

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect

R0wantrees · 21/06/2018 14:02

Ah....
(wiki)
"The Streisand effect is a phenomenon whereby an attempt to hide, remove, or censor a piece of information has the unintended consequence of publicizing the information more widely, usually facilitated by the Internet."

I have learned so much on FWR board in the last few months.
Thank you

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womanformallyknownaswoman · 21/06/2018 14:12

Well said Rowantrees - pleased my post helped in raising the profile of the disordered few who cause havoc for organisations and individuals alike. We are in the cross-fire.

And I have to say to Justine and MN - go watch Hannah Gadsby in Nanette on Netflix and consider very carefully, during the laughter and tears, why you have chosen to throw women and children to the wolves of male violence, with their bomb threats, violence and sexual entitlement. Why have you put your "reputation" ahead of women and children's safety? It's sending the message that women and children are subordinate to your profit and brand. It speaks volumes about where your value systems lay. Shame on you. You say you stand for freedom of speech. With that comes a responsibility. We are the canaries in the coal mine - if we are spluttering you can bet all the others are dying or dead by now. Why do you disdain our cries?

R0wantrees · 21/06/2018 14:15

womanformallyknownaswoman

I'm so sorry I didn't reference your post above about querulants.

I had intended to paste your name and got distracted.

Its a really important post and information.

Thank you

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womanformallyknownaswoman · 21/06/2018 14:21

No worries ROwantrees - you're doing an amazing job, over the past few days particularly, so happy to sit in the blaze of your magnificent words

R0wantrees · 21/06/2018 14:34

Lisa Muggeridge comment

Lisa Muggeridge Suspended by Twitter and Quoting her breaches MN Guidelines
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R0wantrees · 21/06/2018 14:39

twitter.com/ResistersUK

There is a blaze of important & inspiring words from many wonderful and wise women on this site.

Lisa Muggeridge Suspended by Twitter and Quoting her breaches MN Guidelines
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