Gender Identity - what is it?

[Wakame]

Gender identity, simply put, is a person's innate sense of their own sex. Now, if you are one of the minority who either don't have, or are not aware of their gender identity, then this can be a difficult thing to understand. You're like a person who was born blind trying to understand what red looks like.

However, don't let that put you off - we can't see electrons either but we know they exist because they are suggested by science. So what science is there to suggest that gender identity exists? Well here's one for you:

There is a birth deformity called "cloacal exstrophy" which involves severe malformations of the lower abdomen. In the past boys born with this condition were often given a "sex change" shortly after birth and were raised as girls with no knowledge of their male past. Despite this, a large percentage go on to express a male gender identity.

That innate knowledge of their own sex is gender identity.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1421517/

One thought experiment you could try is to imagine what it would be like if an ingenious neurologist transplanted your brain into a man's body. Would you now feel like a man, or would you feel like a woman inside a man's body? There's no right or wrong answer and if you are genuinely "agender" (without a gender identity) then the experiment is not going to tell you anything. However, for some people, it's an experiment through which they start to understand.

It's a thought experiment so it's not about current medical science, however, the boys with cloacal exstrophy kind of did have their brains transplanted into apparently female bodies, so it's a good analogy. And as you can see, many of them felt like boys in female bodies.

Most of you will of course, dismiss this. That's OK - doctors and scientists don't doubt the existence of gender identity, and you'll make little progress until you acknowledge it.

Just curious why you have started a new thread when you have been discussing this at length today with bowlofbabelfish and others?

I would have thought that this comment would be better made there.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3282573-World-Health-Organisation-ICD-11-on-trans-people

I'm not going to engage further on this thread.

Are you aware of how patronising that comes across? Or was that deliberate?

I'm sure you and other people feel they have a gender identity. I don't see why that feeling/belief takes precedence over their biological sex in certain situations where sex categorisation is relevant. Plus someone's subjective internal sense of gender identity is not the same as experiencing being in a sexed body.

wow such patronizing much arrogance.

ha, cross post :)

I'll admit, I've no intention of reading all of your post, but we can't see electrons either but we know they exist because they are suggested by science. They are not suggest by science, they exist.

Gender identity is a religious belief. And I agree with the others - shan't be providing further oxygen.

What I find amazing about that study is that almost half the children decided to remain as females.

I have this discussion loads WAKAME; I find it really interesting.

What I've found is that some people believe they know their "gender identity" on account of simply knowing their bodily sex, and other people knowing it too. To those people the notion of gender identity is a nonsense; there's sex identity (which is their knowing their body) and there's nothing else.

I think it's interesting to try and imagine if somehow your biological sex was kept a secret from both you and everyone around you, would you have a sense of yourself as a particular sex? And which??

Obviously there are also others who think that as well as knowing their bodily sex they also have a sense of their gender identity - which may or may not align with that bodily sex - and that seems quite feasible too.

I don't really know which is the case, perhaps it's not the same for everyone. At the very least I'm not going to tell all the people who see it one way that it can only be the other; perhaps it really is both; some people have one, some people do not. Dunno. But you're right I think that a good many professionals in the field recognise it as a phenomenon, in some people at least.

You know, I'm a Catholic. Believe it down to my bones. I will willingly blobble on all day to those that ask me what I truly believe happens at communion. I can present evidence from the bible and the Catechism and various saints and popes, and even point you to Eucharistic miracles that have been investigated.

I'm fairly certain not many would put any credence in any of those things, because I am clearly entirely biased because I already believe in my chosen religion. And even if they were disposed to be more open to those ideas and sources, I would only make a big deal of it if I was asked to present my reasoning.

Wakame, you are clearly a true believer in the religion of gender. You are utterly invested in it and live your life accordingly. Happily, we live in a society where you may hold whichever worldview you wish, and act in accordance with it.

What you can't do is push your worldview as a trump card that over-rides the rights and safety of those others in society who don't believe your religion. You can make your case, of course. But most true believers of any stripe learn pretty quickly that their cause is rarely helped by dropping their evangelism everywhere with no apparent awareness of the appropriateness of the venue. Those that do wander about street preaching, or persistently and repeatedly posting their evangelism in places where it isn't welcomed and in fact is shown to be problematic and detrimental to many others are rightly seen as fundamentalists and usually dismissed by most onlookers.

I just thought I'd point out, in good faith, how you are coming across, just in case, by some wild chance, you are actually able to step out of your agenda for a second.

I haven't seen anyone on here who has a problem with people having a gender identity as long as that is not conflated with sex.

I think it's interesting to try and imagine if somehow your biological sex was kept a secret from both you and everyone around you, would you have a sense of yourself as a particular sex? And which??

Yes, I find this interesting too, but unless accompanied by body dysphoria then what does it matter? It's the bodily sex that gives a need for segregation (health, sport...), I don't understand why gender identity would have anything to do with this.

Floral -Quite.

Wakame believes in gender.

I’m a gender atheist.

One belief does not take precedence over the other and there is nothing material to observe to prove either of us right or wrong.

We can both find ‘evidence’ to support our viewpoint online, we can both find ‘evidence’ to dispute the other.

I have absolutely no problem with Wakame stating their belief, but it does not alter my position on not wanting my infant school aged daughter to find herself sharing the swimming pool showers with a person with a wang.

"We can both find ‘evidence’ to support our viewpoint online, we can both find ‘evidence’ to dispute the other."

Mine is above. Where's yours?

Even if gender is true, what is the purpose of segregating people based on it? It's like separating people based on music type, there's no real reason to. I can't imagine we would ever need a law that splits up by rock/ pop / jazz, so why do we need laws to split us on gender?

Ok. I admit it. I only came back to the thread to see who had called themselves SPOFS!

One thought experiment you could try is to imagine what it would be like if an ingenious neurologist transplanted your brain into a man's body. Would you now feel like a man, or would you feel like a woman inside a man's body? There's no right or wrong answer and if you are genuinely "agender" (without a gender identity) then the experiment is not going to tell you anything. However, for some people, it's an experiment through which they start to understand.

Wow, thanks Wakame. You've really opened my eyes. Before this I was just one stupid female, you know, reading shit on Mumsnet (you know, those silly mums with their silly ideas). I really need guidance from those more in the know from science and stuff, cos it's likely that most of the females here don't really understand the big complicated issues.

Thanks for being patient with me though - your style of posting really helps me understand that I'm a little bit thick, and can't empathise beyond my own world view.

Or understand the complicated science around gender identity (forgive me, I was schooled in the sociology of gender, waaay too regressive and political in nature).

But now I've tried your thought experiment, I've really started to understand.

Trouble is, my life experience is pretty much shaped around the biology I have, rather than my feelings. So that ingenious neurologist may have to take that into account when working out how people might project stuff when asked to imagine being transplanted into others' bodies.

I'm with SPOFS. Even if gender identity is real, why on earth would you segregate sports, changing rooms, toilets, prisons etc by it?

As actual women are vulnerable and discriminated against based on their sex, then sex is the only logical basis on which to segregate

Wakame personally, I do not deny the existence of gender identity and gender dysphoria. It is not for me to say 'well, I have no gender identity and therefore it doesn't exists' when others report something different.

The issue that I and some feminists have is that in some situations, it doesn't matter what someone's identity is because the important issue is biology. A biological male is usually stronger than a biological female. Therefore, I should not be placed in a weightlifting competition with a biological male because of that person's body. Nothing to do with gender identity- it doesn't come into it because it does not affect how much weight someone can lift.

Do you see the distinction?

PeakPants

I think this case highlights the conflict with gender expression and its associated rights and biological/sex rights & good nursing practice towards women:

inews.co.uk/news/health/nhs-woman-transgender-nurse-smear-test/

R0wantrees yes I agree. That woman obviously wanted a female-bodied nurse. Unless you specifically ask someone about their gender identity, how would you even know what it is?

interesting posts from Rat and Floral thank you. Thought-provoking.

Wakame reminds me of the poorer trainees whose work I have to correct before it leaves the building.

"I think it's interesting to try and imagine if somehow your biological sex was kept a secret from both you and everyone around you, would you have a sense of yourself as a particular sex? And which??"
For me, Rat, I think I would have had no sense at all until puberty - possibly even until having penetrative sex. Playing cricket instead of doing ballet - it would have been all one to me.
But childbirth would have changed it I think. Splitting in two and another person coming out is just too big a deal not to alter my view of myself

Let me get this straight -

The boys in your study were deformed baby boys, raised as girls?

Who grew up to insist they were in fact, boys?

Because that’s not evidence of gender identity, that’s just recognising their material biology, despite the absence of genitalia.

This actually supports the GC feminist argument, that male born people are still male, even if their genitalia has been surgically removed.

Still, I won’t get too excited because:
a)Tiny study sample (16).
b)Results of experiment (published 2006?) not yet repeated?

Beca

I'm with SPOFS. Even if gender identity is real, why on earth would you segregate sports, changing rooms, toilets, prisons etc by it?

As actual women are vulnerable and discriminated against based on their sex, then sex is the only logical basis on which to segregate

This to me says everything ... I am quite happy for others to live with the religion of gender identity and if it makes them happy, great.. .I am not keen for them to foist their religion on me and make me act accordingly

All 16 subjects had moderate-to-marked interests and attitudes that were considered typical of males.

I haven't read the whole paper yet but this jumped out at me as a ludricrous remark for a scientist to make.

I must be male because I've always liked maths, worked in STEM, am a computing student, used to be a pool champion and always did the flat packed furniture for my ex.