Hi @wakame
A point by point response follows, it’s very long.
When I said you provided a fine definition of gender identity, I should have put more emphasis on the “A”. It’s not the only one that’s been proposed and it doesn’t cover all the current uses of the term. We can go ahead and run with it but you’ll have to try and convince the rest of the transgender community to use it.
“ many people on Mumsnet who state that gender identity doesn't exist,”
Well, that’s a difficult question. If something exists only in the mind as a subjective experience, does it really ‘exist’? Do imaginary friends exist? Does your internal subvocalisation ‘exist’? It’s a subjective experience that is genuine for the person experiencing it but doesn’t take part in our shared reality.
It is also for all those people who confuse gender identity with gender roles.
This is not a problem with mumsnet, this is throughout transgender ideology. I’ve never read a single narrative about transition that didn’t include things like ‘I always play with dolls and never wanted to play rugby with the boys’. This is why I say that while your definition of gender identity is fine, you’re going to have to try and get the rest of the transgender community to use it too.
^” We already know that it is possible to have a gender identity that doesn't match the sex you were assigned at birth given the fact that trans people exist. The question is not "if" it happens, but "how" it happens.”
You’re going to have to refine your definition then. You asserted that gender identity is “a person's innate sense of their own sex”. Would you like to change it to; “A persons innate sense of having a sex which may or may not be related to their actual sex.” ?
I feel like I need to take a digression so we can agree on definition of sex, female, etc. Because you say that you were always female and you transitioned and that trans people prioritise the sex of the mind over the body (if I’m not misinterpreting that?)
These are straight dictionary definitions:
sex: either of the two main categories (male and female) into which humans and most other living things are divided on the basis of their reproductive functions.
female: of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) which can be fertilized by male gametes.
Male: of or denoting the sex that produces gametes, especially spermatozoa, with which a female may be fertilized or inseminated to produce offspring.
As you mentioned people with CAIS let’s just briefly cover reproductive development so we know we’re all working from a common understanding. In utero all foetuses begin with undifferentiated gonads. If that foetus has a Y chromosome those gonads differentiate into testes, which may potentially produce sperm. All foetuses with a Y chromosome (or specifically the SRY gene on that chromosome, as in XXmale) are male.
In foetuses without an SRY gene those gonads differentiate into ovaries which may go on to produce ovum. These are all female. Sexual development after that point can get very complicated but up to the differentiation of male and female it is very simple.
The sexes exist for the exclusive purpose of sexual reproduction, so it’s nonsensical to discuss them outside of that context. The sexes are divided by their potential role in reproduction, whether or not the individual actually participates in it or is capable of participating in it. The root of sexual differentiation is the presence or absence of the SRY gene, which is a binary characteristic. All people who have the SRY gene are potentially sperm producers (and are never ovum producers) and all who don’t have it are potentially ovum producers (never sperm producers). There are any number of medical conditions or choices that result in not actually reproducing, but that doesn’t change a persons sex.
I understand that you may use these words in different ways to refer to yourself and your experience but for the purpose of this discussion let’s keep things in the common accepted definitions. Sex is defined by chromosomal reproductive role, not by the mind. Females have no Y chromosome or SRY gene, and unless they have a medical condition they go on to experience menarche and ovulation, among many other things.
People with CAIS have testes and sometimes produce sperm, they are males with an intersex condition that causes them to develop some physical structures similar to what is expected in females.
I assume we have a common understanding here of the definitions of sex, male, female, and the basic process of sexual development? If not please explain where you disagree or don’t understand.
People don’t change sex, and transwomen are male, but transwomen may change their sexual characteristics to resemble the sex of their gender identity (using your definition of gender identity).
What were they perceiving? Their liver function?
Potentially. We’re just now learning about how male and female bodies function differently (historically women were just assumed to be smaller malformed men). There’s also pheromones, which again we’re just not beginning to appreciate all the ways they subtly affect our perceptions. I’m pointing out that you’ve assumed a fixed gender identity, when it’s equally explained by continuing to accurately perceive sex. Even if they didn’t perceive that they were male, they likely would have been able to perceive that they were NOT female, due to the fluctuations and development that other young girls experience.
The boys gender identity was immutable as is the gender identity of trans people.
You have to accept that you’re really biased in this. You’re not looking at a study of these boys and wondering ‘what could cause them to recognise their won sex?’ you’re looking at the study and thinking ‘does this reinforce what I already believe about gender identity?’ Pretty much everyone does that, but we all ned to work on recognising it. The outcomes in this study could be the result of either a gyroscope-like gender identity which is an innate perception of a body sex that may or may not be accurate, or by continuing to accurately perceive the actual sex of one’s own body the majority of the time. We don’t know which it is, and whether or not it’s related to transgenderism.
“You are mistaking gender identity for an ability to perceive the sex of your body rather than an ability to perceive the sex of your core identity”
Sorry, you’ve changed your definition here. We went from “innate sense of a sex” to “ability to perceive the sex of your core identity” which is very different. Or I have misinterpreted you before. I was understanding that your definition is about an innate sense of sex, defined as having a male or female body with (in this case) the typical sexual characteristics. I thought you meant it as a sort of proprioception. We know that people have in internal ‘map’ or their own body. For example phantom limb syndrome is caused by a disconnection between the brains ‘map’ and the actual physical body. Is that what you meant? That would indicate that transgenderism is always linked to some level of dysphoria or disconnection between the sex of the brain map and the actual sex of the body. Is that what you meant? Identities and personalities do not have a sex, bodies do. It is hypothetically possible to have an innate sense that you sex SHOULD be other than what it is (like the sense that you SHOULD still have a left arm), but that doesn’t mean that you have an internal sex, and more than you can have internal limbs. Can you please clarify?
On genderfluid: “I suspect that if your gender identity is balanced in the centre, it's quite easy for your perception of it to fall either side from time to time.”
But that completely undermines the idea that gender identity is ‘innate’. If it can shift from time to time.
It's only a shame that so many of the agender people here have made the leap from "I have no gender identity" to "Therefore no-one has a gender identity".
Hang on, hang on, so you’re saying that some people don’t have a gender identity at all? So your definition should be that gender identity is “A sense experienced by some people of having a sex which may or may not be related to their actual sex.” It can’t be innate or common if many people don’t have it or if it changes over time, it’s just a sense that some people have and some people don’t. If you think about it, you’re getting really close to my definition of gender identity here.
“a belief in the specific sex of ones own mind.”
Because I put it to you that it is the belief in being transgender that makes a person transgender. If a person has those genetic abnormalities you listed but does not believe that they have the ‘brain sex’ of the opposite sex, they aren’t transgender. If they do not have those abnormalities but do believe they have the ‘brainsex’ of the opposite sex, they are transgender.
So my definition is
“a belief in the specific sex of ones own mind.”
And I believe the best explanation of yours is
“A sense experienced by some people of having a sex which may or may not be related to their actual sex.”
The main difference is that my definition includes non-dysphoric trans people and yours doesn't. I'd be fine with either one.