Trans murder rates

[dietofstrangeplaces]

I've seen the claims about trans people being murdered at very high rates. And I've seen the reply that these are actually specific murder rates, of prostitutes in particular Latin American countries.

Can anyone point me at more data about this?

For me, one of the key things about the various lists of transmen and transwomen who have been murdered (such as this from Wikipedia) is that in almost every case where someone has been charged / convicted, the murderer was a man. Not a TERF, a man.

So tell me again who is putting trans people at risk?

What's clear is that the presentation of the statistics of the murders of trans people is so badly misrepresented by trans activists as to bear no relation whatsoever with reality.

Many of the statistics in this area undergo similar misrepresentations at the hands of trans activists.

in almost every case where someone has been charged / convicted, the murderer was a man

Or another trans. Remember the HR lawyer in the UK pushed under a train?

In Australia a couple of years ago, there was one murder in QLD (described as transwoman, but exactly I am not sure), murdered by live-in boyfriend (both worked for gay prostitution, where they met, although I think stopped when they went to QLD). It involved cannibalism too.

transcrimeuk.com/2017/11/16/theres-no-evidence-trans-people-are-murdered-at-higher-rates-than-the-general-population-in-the-uk/

I didn't "question bomb", I dropped in to suggest how you could make your statistical comparison meaningful. Well, it wasn't my statistical comparison and you did make your point twice, in quick succession, then said you were too busy to continue engaging!

I wasn't being aggressive, just a tad frustrated that you would care so little to engage with a question you posed twice - and you are right, it wasn't a question, it was more of a dismissive sneer, a bit of a derail.

So maybe we shall both be long awaiting an apology

I find the reliance of statistics in this unimportant to the point the numbers don't matter what matters is that people are specificly murdered for being trans around the world that is the point. They are also routinely murdered for being. Gay and lesbian too but we don't go around arguing the numbers to know. That it is wrong. We are also arrased and physically assaulted for being trans and when that as happened to you then the numbers sort of don't matter one is too many. Woman are murdered around the world routinely for simply being woman all. Of this is statisticly usually carried out by men and it is this toxic masculinity that is the issue and we are all casualtys of it.

But we can continue to quibble over the numbers or we can maybe address the issues

It's hardly a 'quibble' to address the inflated and misapplied stats that Transactivism uses to shore up its USP of *most oppressed people on the planet.

I have never seen anyone GC on this board say that the murder of any human being for any reason is acceptable or justified. No one wants trans people to be murdered. Not literally, not figuratively-literally, not at all.

Yes, one is too many, and I understand why a trans person being murdered would have a significant impact on a trans community. But I'm afraid it is the weaoponization of stats, which often turn out to be pure fiction in the first place, that obscure the impact on the rest of us and the creation of a false 'hierarchy' of victimhood in which women, yet again, are at the bottom of the pile is precisely why 'quibble' in this instance extremely dismissive and missing-of-the-point.

I totally agree that the stats on both side of this argument are often weponised for effect and that they are often misleading and used to. Make points rather than addressing the issues. I fully. Support. You in that I wish people would not use it and there should not be a race to victim Hood by people. I think. We can agree on that and that the plite of all woman worldwide needs far. Greater focus and the issues that we face.

Excellent. You'll appreciate the fabulous regulars getting on with discussing that then.

Bespin that was my point, poorly made, I grant. Stats can say pretty much what you want them to say and any murder is abhorrent.

However trying to address the often grossly inflated and or misapplied figures that many transactivist posts/sites/organisations isn't a quibble. Yes, it becomes defensive, often obscures the point being made as the feminist tries to point out the issue and gets mired in defending their position.

That is what I find the most invidious aspect of the 'fight' we have been sucked into. It shouldn't bloody exist! No man or woman, no matter their personal 'identification' or sexuality, is being benefited by this. So you have to wonder why transactivists continue to work so bloody hard at it. What do they gain?

Hi FloralBunting totally I'm. Also a regular been here a number of months don't always post but didn't realise there was a members. Only. Discussion

Curious I. Agree with this the whole. Fight as been created in such a way that both sides are simply defending positions and that now it will be hard. To actually. Find solutions to the genuine issues that have been raised as people are finding more. And more issues to attack each other with non of the original issue have been resolved as we are too busy mobing onto the next

Nope, other than being a member of MN, not a members only club. It's just one of those things that members who repeatedly do the 'ignore the man behind the curtain and talk about what I want to talk about' on every thread they post on, don't really contribute anything substantive to the conversation.

Yes I totally agree now do you want to discuss the murder rates or are you going to continue to not contribute to the thread.

I think it's totally off the way that trans activists appropriate the plight of trans sex workers in South American in order to further their own 'we are the mostest oppressed people evah' agenda.

Munroe Bergdorf did it recently with their 'statistically I only have 4 years left to live' tweet. Yes, that would be true if they were a prostitute and lived in a Brazilian favela. But they don't. They wrote that tweet for dramatic effect.

Is there anything left to discuss?

We have ascertained that the most often published numbers are often misleading and that trans individuals are no more likely to be murdered than anyone else, less likely than women, and that no poster here is any less disgusted by one murder than another!

I think that answered OPs initial question and more!

Yes that as always been a thing that as bothered me moon, we should not equate our issues with that of others in. Other country's as the number of issues they face are many and varied. We are often forgetful of our Western European point of view though we should always attempt to highlight there plite and work. With them to improve there situation. I find this also true in relation to the current issues in Russia with lgbt.

Statistics seem to matter until they are proved untrue then suddenly statistics don’t matter at all

Yes, Moon. It's the misuse of the stats to further a distorted agenda that is the crux of the matter.

Bespin, in all honesty, I'm not that up for a protracted 'discussion' with you, as so far I have only seen attempted derails and strange posts that attempt to ape other people's points without any clear focus on the rights of women, which is what this section of MN is for. Do you have a point on this thread other than "We shouldn't be concerned about inaccurate stats, we should be focusing on what I think is appropriate"?

Statistics seem to matter until they are proved untrue then suddenly statistics don’t matter at all Who said that?

It's a truism that stats can be manipulated.

It's true that the stats in this case seem to suggest that TRA claims are unsubstantiated, re Brazil as elsewhere.

It is true that many crime stats are complete bollocks.

But it remains true that stats are what we have and that we should always take any assumptions made based on them should always be taken with a healthy dose of salt!

Curious Bespin said the numbers don’t matter - but they do when they are being used to misrepresent the situation and policies are being put in place because of misrepresentation. This ‘extreme vulnerability’ is given as justification why women and girls should be put at risk.

Of course the stats matter.

You could argue that the suicide stats for young people were misrepresented to increase them for a specific purpose. Puberty blocker drugs have such severe lifelong side effects and 80% of children questioning gender identity end up reconciled. So there can be no medical rationale for treating ANY child with blockers. The idea that one must treat or suicide is the most likely outcome is a direct pressure on the risk/benefit assessment of treating a minor with those drugs. The effects are sonsevere that you can only justify it if death is the likely outcome of non treatment.

Numbers and their perception are powerful things.

Ah, I see. Moss ! I responded to that post too

I think the statistics matter in this case because actually in the UK at least, trans people aren't getting murdered for being trans. There are 12 overall, we have no idea how many are because they were trans but there's nothing to suggest they were murdered because they were trans, if you take into account there might be some domestic violence, or perhaps again sex work. There can only be the odd one off incident, and whilst the one murder is very tragic it's not really a sign that trans people are getting killed for being trans.

The majority of murders are against sex workers in with America, again is that because they are trans or is it because they were sex workers? The statistics matter because if someone genuinely wants to prevent murders of trans people then they will want to know a) where and b) why

Trans murder stats are often quoted by trans activists to prove to the world why TERFS are so horrible, as if there's a direct link between being a terf and commuting murder, when that's clearly not the case. Instead these people could be targeting male violence, against all people and perhaps helping all sex workers.

Stats are always importent until they don't prove your point then as like governments they are discarded. I would hope that policy is not solely based on stats but on need and again I will say which none of you seen to want to acknowledge when they is competing need then there needs to be discussion and debate about how to accommodate those needs. This is the whole point of all of this but it seems to have become this game everyone likes to play and no one wants to end.