Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Lurker Delurking to seek support

38 replies

KaiserThiefs · 19/06/2018 10:04

Loong time reader of this board but I've never really posted because of all the other eloquent posters that say it all so much better than me.

I just wanted to let you know that what you're doing matters, it really matters to me and all the others like me and I also wanted a little hand hold because my son's school have sent home a letter about an upcoming residential trip where they've stated that:

'there will be no mixed genders in any room'

I've written to them [wibble] to get clarification if the accommodation will be sex segregated as this is a provision that's protected in the Equality Act.

I want you all to know that your voices give our actions strength and let us know that it's not bigotry to ask for adequate safeguarding.

It's not phobic to protect our children's dignity and it's okay to say no because it makes me feel uncomfortable.

There doesn't need to be a better reason, our rights are protected and it's not an act of hate to want to protect them.

(if they write back and challenge me though I know I'm going to apologise and run away, I have been socialised to the nth degree!)

OP posts:
BarrackerBarmer · 19/06/2018 10:09

Well done - that is really brave, and there will be other parents who will be very glad you have asked the question.

And this is where conflation of 'sex' and 'gender' is really insidious.

What we SHOULD have in segregated sleeping arrangements is
one sex: mixed 'genders'
NOT
mixed sex: one 'gender'

Separate the bodies, not the mind types you imagine those bodies are housing.

Bravo on your courage

Ekphrasis · 19/06/2018 10:10

I think they're basically saying the boys and girls will be definitely separate- I bet my bottom dollar they've just mistaken gender to mean sex. But well done for asking to clarify it.

Gender is a trendy word these days to use instead of sex (no sex pls we're British).

Norther · 19/06/2018 10:13

Well done! Am myself drafting letter at moment to school about dreadful wording of their equality policy. Am also long time lurker come into the light.

NeverLovedElvis · 19/06/2018 10:14

Well done. Will you come back and let us know how they respond?

heresyandwitchcraft · 19/06/2018 10:17

Excellent! Thank you for your courage! Smile

LangCleg · 19/06/2018 10:19

Well done and welcome from the delurk, OP. We all know it's incredibly hard to stick your head above the parapet. You are brave.

LaSqrrl · 19/06/2018 10:21

Good for you Kaiser, for standing up.

Original poster
KaiserThiefs · 19/06/2018 10:25

Thank you you lovely lot!

I'll definitely come back and I'm sure they've just worded it politely (heaven forbid we ever mention the word sex in polite society!). It used to be that we could use these two words interchangeably and everyone knew we meant the same thing but in times where the entire meaning of the descriptor of 51% of the population has been changed (to what now we can never be sure or voice without censorship). Words matter.

By conflating gender with sex they're helping to open the door to confusion that allows bad people to abuse and sometimes all it takes is making someone stop and think.

I'm sure the majority of people out there don't want to upset or offend anyone dysphoric but it's not helpful to anyone to remove single sex services.

Do you know, this is why I lurk..it all sounds so much more...coherent in my head!

OP posts:
LighthouseSouth · 19/06/2018 10:27

good for you OP

i would be prepared for confusion though, as one possibility is that whoever replies is thinking of "gender" as "sex" - depending on whether they've had to face these issues before.

Dragoncake · 19/06/2018 10:27

Good for you. Clarity in safeguarding is so important. The wording isn't clear, given recent trends to conflate sex and gender. It's reasonable to ask for clarification so that you are full informed. And courageous!

MsMcWoodle · 19/06/2018 10:28

You're doing brilliantly. Well done.

Elletorro · 19/06/2018 10:29

I spoke to my kids teacher about the consultation: she sent me to the deputy head.

I followed up with drafting a suggested response for the (single sex) school to the Scottish consultation.

A couple of months ago I asked to review their Equality and Diversity policy: pointed out the holes and sent them transgender trend’s school pack.

2 weeks ago I went to A Woman’s Place and guess who was there?

My kids teacher and the safeguarding lead for the school. I introduced them to Lisa Muggeridge.

So don’t be scared. You might be pushing at an open door. And what’s the worst that could happen? They might think you are a bit of a Mary Whitehouse.

OldCrone · 19/06/2018 10:31

As Ekphrasis says, they have probably used 'gender' as a polite way of saying 'sex'. But from what I read on here, there are an awful lot of 'trans children' in schools now, so they may have used it deliberately to enable the those children to share accommodation according to their 'gender'.

From your son's point of view, it's unlikely to be a problem if this is the case, as girls who identify as boys tend to be happy to go in with the girls. Parents of girls at the school may be happy you have raised this.

Well done on sticking your neck out in real life.

BettyDuMonde · 19/06/2018 10:31

Good call!

Fingers crossed for a nice, sensible reply (and a school office that remembers your query long enough to communicate more clearly in future)!

ToeToToe · 19/06/2018 10:37

Well done OP Brew

R0wantrees · 19/06/2018 10:38

KaiserThiefs
It may be worthwhile looking at the schools Equality and Diversity policy. It will likely be available on the school's website.

A number of LAs have misquoted the Equality Act 2010. It includes 9 protected characteristics inclusing sex and gender identity. However on a number of LAs sex has been replaced by gender. This is a mistake and many of them have acknowledged this and corrected.

It is reasonable to assume that schools may use their LA statement as a template and so may have made the same error.

If the policy wording is wrong, this will of course likely inform subsequent decisions such as the one you have highlighted.

Link here to WPUK explanation with guidance:
womansplaceuk.org/grassroots-womens-pressure-forces-local-authorities-to-comply-with-the-law-over-sex-and-gender/

Original poster
KaiserThiefs · 19/06/2018 10:39

Absolutely agree OldCrone and Ekphrasis and I realise that this doesn't really affect my son but it's when groups can turn around and highlight how accepting of self ID vast swathes of the country are because of badly thought out inclusive documents and policies like this that I start to worry.

We're too conditioned to not make a fuss if it doesn't harm us directly and then we're told off for making a fuss when it finally does affect us. We fought for sex segregation for a good reason, I don't want to give it up for no reason at all.

OP posts:
Original poster
KaiserThiefs · 19/06/2018 10:43

Strangely enough I did have a look at that too R0wantrees and it was written with Stonewall so I thought 'Oh no, it's going to be a pile or progressive bullshit' but I was wrong!

Sex mentioned as a protected characteristic and no dogma present at all! I do wonder if it'll remain the same though, it was last updated about 4 years ago so I suppose it means pushing back like this is important to make sure the policies stay that way.

OP posts:
OldCrone · 19/06/2018 10:44

I'm with you all the way, KaiserThiefs. I was just trying to offer some reassurance that whatever the school means, it probably won't affect your son directly at this moment. I was not for a moment suggesting you shouldn't have said anything. Sorry if my meaning was not clear.

Original poster
KaiserThiefs · 19/06/2018 10:46

Ooh:

"The boys field is to the right and they have toilets next to them and the girls field is to the left and they use the toilets in the house during the night. So yes, the tents are single sexed."

Result. It's single sexed but most importantly they've had to clarify the point so hopefully they'll choose to be less ambiguous in future (or I'll write in again)

So far, delurking has been a very pleasant experience. Nest of Vipers, my arse.

OP posts:
Original poster
KaiserThiefs · 19/06/2018 10:47

Noo, OldCrone didn't take it that way for a second and I appreciate the reassurance :)

OP posts:
R0wantrees · 19/06/2018 10:47

Its good when its correct.

As sex is acknowledged as a protected characteristic in the policy, it should be easier for the school to understand and acknowledge the basis of your query.

As you say, sometimes people use gender as a euphemism for sex.

It may be in this case that's what has happened.

It should be easy for the school to confirm.

BarrackerBarmer · 19/06/2018 10:49

Be ye not fooled.

Vipers we are, and vipers we remain.

Welcome to the nest.

Original poster
KaiserThiefs · 19/06/2018 10:55

Ha ha! [backs away carefully]

Thanks BarrackerBarmer it's been a long time coming

OP posts:
UpstartCrow · 19/06/2018 11:06

That's a good result. You;re only one person but hopefully you've just made them think a bit about how they word their policies and letters home.
(hiss)