Made-up, nonexistent rules about what spaces between words mean

[WombOfOnesOwn]

I've held my tongue long enough! I'm going to make enemies of both sides with this post.

So we all know that "transwomen" is a no-no and "trans women" is fine, and this shibboleth exists because of the insistence of MTFs that the space indicates that "trans women" are a specific type of woman, while "transwomen" indicates non-womanness. Someone in a previous thread brought up "seahorse" as a reason that "transwomen" could mean "people resembling, but not identical to women or contained in category 'women.'"

So I have to ask: Are TRAs putting sea cucumbers into their garden salads?

Would they be excited to take their children to see the sea monkeys in the zoo?

Would they take a "koala bear" to a bear sanctuary?

Do they think the "vice president" is a type of president?

Are they horrified at the eating of "hot dogs"?

Do they wonder why the cream never turns into "peanut butter"?

By the same token, women who absolutely insist on putting no space in the word "transwomen" because they feel like it, like "seahorse," connotes a resemblance but not belonging in the category:

Is a sunflower not a flower?

A rattlesnake not a snake?

Peppermint isn't real mint?

Seashores must not be real shores, blacksmiths must not be real smiths, sandstone must not be a real stone.

There is no rule in English, not even one of those fuzzy ones where 2 or 3% of words are exceptions, about whether open compounds (with a space) or closed compounds (without a space) connote a specific type of the noun in the compound, or whether they connote a more metaphorical relationship. We use context to understand this complex, non-rule-bound interaction of words.

Why on earth this is a hill anyone has chosen to die on, from either side, is beyond me. Why perfectly reasonable feminists have either bought so deeply into trans rhetoric that they believe a transparently false "rule" about English, or are reacting so deeply against literally anything trans activists say to the point where they'd insist the sky was orange if the TRA said it was blue, is even more confusing.

I just wanted to give a very dry round of applause to all the women chanting "TERF is a slur" and talking about how "cis" is hate speech. You got what you wanted! Isn't it great? Let's all celebrate

Oh

I'm not sure they are here yet

Rufustheyawningreindeer I got walloped the first time I said bloody. Different times back then.

I saw a video a few days ago about some sort of protest, I'm not sure where. Anyway, all these people wearing black were yelling and shouting at a few other people standing around. I was peering at my small phone screen, trying to figure out who was who and who was shouting what, when suddenly into my ears came a cry, pretty much a wail of "but what about my pronouns, their mine, I want you to use them".

And I thought, ffs, this is just silly.

The space in trans makes me feel the same way. It doesn't fucking matter where the trans is, where the woman is, where the man is, where any of the words are, someone born with XY chromosomes is biologically male. And legally changing their name/gender makes them a male with a legally changed name.

It's just word (and space) salad. It's meaningless.

But some people are trying to assign meanings, and FORCE people to not only use the words/spaces, but to MEAN the same things when they use them. It's bonkers.

I'm curious what the law would make of us being forced into a lie. Surely preferred pronouns should be discretionary? I will not use pronouns that go against biological sex. I wonder how many years in jail that would get me?

spontaneus

I know!!! And then my dad said the other day that i let the odd shit word out

I bloody didnt...i wasnt that tired of life !!!

(Plus shit is not one of my words...fuck is)

I was recently accused of being a linguistic prescriptivist because I said that communication tended to break down when some people use 'gender' to mean 'sex role stereotypes' and others use it to refer to some innate quality of the soul. Language is for communication! If you don't have a shared understanding of what words mean, there's a problem.

Anyone remember trans ? I remember having blog comments deleted for forgetting the as we had to include both transsexuals and transvestites. Now look what's happened. Ditto with certain people who cannot be named claiming they were women but not female, because one meant gender and the other sex. Now they want female too. I've been saying for a while that if we did accept 'cis' and used it, it wouldn't be long before some started saying 'I've finished transitioning, so now I'm cis...'

Did we demand MN ban the words Terf and Cis?

Where did that happen?

Rufus I never did dare say fuck in front of my parents. To the day they died the closest I got was ffffffffflippin'. Fuck is my go to word for everything now.

Terf and cis are fucking stupid things to call women but I am not sure that anyone wanted them banned did they? Rather the opposite I thought?

I posted that I couldn't care less about being called TERF as I am a trans exclusionary radical feminist so why wouldn't I own the title?

sponaneous

God i wouldnt have dared in front of my mum!!!!

I do in front of my dad, i do try to use it when im properly annoyed as i know that he really struggles when women swear (dinosaur)

I just wanted to give a very dry round of applause to all the women chanting "TERF is a slur" and talking about how "cis" is hate speech. You got what you wanted! Isn't it great? Let's all celebrate

I've never tried to ban any words here, but I think this comment is unfair. This new policy isn't a result of the demands of women on FWR. It was a compromise as a result of the demands of whoever wanted 'trans woman' and only 'trans woman' used.

Rufus My parents were of a different generation all together. Dinosaur really would have summed them both up in their views but they were the best parents ever. Swearing is what navvies did, not gentle folk.

I thought both were dumb

I think they were going to ban TIM anyway so felt they needed to ban TERF and cis as a sop as it were

I also never understood why people on here weren't allowed to 'identify out of cis'

I think the real question is, in this day and age of txt speak and abbreviations when writing a sentence, is that the English language has changed and will soon be totally unrecognisable for future generations, I think what I'm trying to say is whothefuckcares?!

Cross post baroque

spontaneus i virtually agree completely (cept my parents are/were the best parents ever)

So... policewoman not a woman? And here was me thinking it was iffy for almost exactly the opposite reasoning...

ismy

My ds and his partner had a massive argument over the correct use of the word 'they' (still haven't recovered)

So i reckon the language wont change much for a while

OK, I mean, let's see:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/feminist_activism/3183148-Terf-is-a-slur "Is there any way we can have Terf recognised as hate speech?"

"Terf is hate speech."

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3238757-Lobby-Parliament-to-make-TERF-Hate-Speech

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3040706-TERF-isnt-just-a-slur-its-hate-speech

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/2679752-Banning-the-term-cis

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3168124-cis-is-an-abusive-term

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/2393475-Would-MNHQ-consider-extending-the-definition-of-misgendering

Let's not pretend it didn't happen, with hundreds upon hundreds of comments in some of these discussions.

The point here is, men who identify as women are not women they are male name beginning with T XY wo men. So why can't we say male name beginning with T?

I am an adult women, a grown up, the acronym (male name beginning with T) is not banned in law so why here? It's a fucking joke!

Bloody brilliant post. I had no idea that there were issues with "spaces" and have no intention of even trying to get my head around them. I will continue to merrily use transwoman/man and trans woman/man interchangeably and if mn wishes to ban me for that so be it (or should that be sobeit?).
As for cis and TERF - I believe they are both terms of abuse but I would never call for them to be banned.

p.s. I am a woman who has grave concerns that the impact of proposed changes to the law relating to transgender rights will be to significantly erode women's rights. I object to being accused of transphobia for asking questions about the reforms and I do not agree that we need to subvert our language or understanding of biology in order to respect the rights of people who wish to decide on their gender-identity. I urge all women to visit the Fair Play for Women website to read about the issues and form their own views. I am grateful to MN for providing a platform where the issues can be discussed albeit in a heavily-moderataed manner (in contrast to most other social media platforms which have banned or silenced open debate).

Have you ever heard the saying:

"Play stupid games, win stupid prizes"?

That's what's happened here. When you play the stupid game of getting words banned for hurting your feelings or being misapplied to you or whatever you're upset about, you win the stupid prize of having your own speech curtailed as well.

And now, because many feminists (whether they want to talk about it now or not) did want to have these terms banned, there's an "acceptable compromise" solution for anyone who wants to try to come down in the middle on the issue.

We should take our stupid prize home and give it a big hug, since we wanted it so badly.

Transwoman one word is in the dictionary.
We all know trans woman two words means exactly the same thing.

But it's worth noting TRAs are very much trying to promote the idea that a trans woman is "just" another type of woman like tall woman or black woman. So these things are actually important so I much much prefer the use of transwomen over trans woman.

Woman has it's own definition.
Transwoman has a different definition.

MaterialReality

"Anyone remember trans ? I remember having blog comments deleted for forgetting the "

And then after some time had passed the * became transphobic, but I can't quite remember why right now cos it's late

Trans women are not a subset of women, they are men who present as women. I'm not going to change my view, my mind cannot be policed nor can my thoughts. If MN want to police me by banning me for my own choice of words, that is in their power but nothing changes.