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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

How are gendered languages like French dealing with the trans agenda

69 replies

StealthPolarBear · 16/06/2018 08:59

Just helping ds with his homework and there is a different sentence depending on whether you're a boy or a girl to say "I am an only child". Are the French trans community pushing through changes.

OP posts:
dolorsit · 16/06/2018 09:11

This is something I've been thinking about.

My primary and for many years only exposure to the word "gender" was via French. I have no idea why or how words are defined as masculine or femine.

Serfisafleur · 16/06/2018 09:25

I would reasonably assume if a French born female later identifies as male they would use all masculine sentences when referring to themselves, and vice versa.

fmsfms · 16/06/2018 10:08

I believe there is an effort to undo grammar rules around gendered language in French

Can't remember the specific examples but it's along the lines of, a group of people are referred to with the masculine even if they're one man and multiple women

I believe Macron has said the language should stay as it is

moofolk · 16/06/2018 10:16

I read a really interesting ethnography of a group of Travesti in Brazil. They are transgendered prostitutes. It's an affectionate study of people on the edge, doing some pretty unpleasant things.

In terms of this question though, travesti in Portuguese is a male noun and possibly for this reason, many travesti (although not rejecting the term - this is their identity), refer to each other using insults such as bicha (bitch) which is feminine and so necessitates female pronouns.

Amalfimamma · 16/06/2018 10:30

In Italian they are trying to insist that gendered words are used in the correct gender they identify in.

But

The ta lobby doesn't have much traction here so they can't enforce it. Self ID is also not recognised by law so there's nothing they can do about it.

We did have a female speaker in the houses of parliament who insisted on changing the word president (masculine in italian) to a non-existent female form. The same with words for mayor, member of parliament etc but was met with disdain. She tried to pass it off as "a feminist fight for equality" but her real intention was to bow to the tas and most of the female members of parliament laughed at her.

I have no problem using correct words, in their correct gender in English or Italian, or French or Spanish. that is why I'm on my last warning here 🤣

ErrolTheDragon · 16/06/2018 10:43

a group of people are referred to with the masculine even if they're one man and multiple women

That annoyed the hell out of me when I was doing O-levels (mid 70s and I was labouring under the naive delusion that equality was a done deal). Leaving any issues around trans aside, do French people really adhere to that nowadays in groups with few men?

dolorsit · 16/06/2018 11:04

I would reasonably assume if a French born female later identifies as male they would use all masculine sentences when referring to themselves, and vice versa.

In the UK there is a drive to use gender neutral so as to be inclusive.

I know several people who state that they are non binary. They get very upset if you fail to instantly overwrite decades of language processing and don't use "they"

In French there's no neutral singular or even a neutral pronoun to be coopted. The masculine is the default, the masculine is used for mixed groups and the feminine is only used for all feminine nouns. Every adjective and verb has a masculine/feminine version and must agree.

It's been a long time since I've had to conjugate in French so I think verbs are often the same written or still sound the same spoken.

Of course it's possible that non-binary people in France are not bothered about being misgendered because the whole flipping language is gendered. For example, dog/cat - I think one is masculine and one is feminine. It doesn't mean that all of one species is male and the other female.

Iceweasel · 16/06/2018 11:16

a group of people are referred to with the masculine even if they're one man and multiple women
Don't know if this would bother me. I prefer the informal 'guys' for a mixed group in English to 'girls' or 'ladies' (I am a woman, not a girl).

dolorsit · 16/06/2018 11:25

Erroll

Leaving any issues around trans aside, do French people really adhere to that nowadays in groups with few men?

It's something I have wondered about for years. About 20 plus years ago there was a feminist drive to stop the masculine he/him/his as the default in the English language. This is because in English it denotes sex (or at least did at the time)

I found it very jarring when I first saw "she" being used and I hate the constructions he/she or (s)he.

I often wondered if the French had the same language development or if the debate didn't happen because masculine/feminine doesn't automatically denote sex.

To me it's a wonderful example on how language shapes discourse and abstract thought.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 16/06/2018 11:33

I'd bern wondering this too - thanks for starting the the thread SPB

dolorsit · 16/06/2018 11:40

I'm really hoping there is a linguist out there who can contribute as my French is very rusty and I was never very good to begin with.

Yarnswift · 16/06/2018 12:44

There has been an on off push for the neutral pronoun ‘hen’ in Swedish. It’s never really caught on. Possibly because gender isn’t such a restricted thing here.

Men seem very comfortable with themselves however they dress or act. Far less overt gender pressure here.

Furx · 16/06/2018 13:02

Im interested to see how the German language is getting on with this. I only did o level and didn’t stick at it, so I have no idea how it works nowadays.

All professions are gendered, like actor and actress in English, but extending to doctor, teacher, engineer etc.

I didn’t realise that about a mixed group in French being masculine. From what i remember, In German plurals are grammatical feminine, even if it’s a group of men.

LinoleumBlownapart · 16/06/2018 15:59

I prefer the informal 'guys' for a mixed group in English, but that's technically a masculine pronoun. Ya'll or you lot would probably be more gender neutral. I don't know about other languages but in the ones I know, people saying "boys" feels like us saying "guys" so not that odd. In Portuguese though mixed groups are usually refered to as "gente", rather than "os meninos" for example. There's some movement away from gender specific words or when writing to parents for example the school writes seus/suas filhos/as rather than just writing seus filhos.

LinoleumBlownapart · 16/06/2018 16:07

moofolk puta is bitch, bicha is an insect or small animal but it's also an offensive term for homossexuals which an English equivalent would be something like poofta or fag.

moofolk · 16/06/2018 20:21

@LinoleumBlownapart yes that's right I think they use puta or bicha. According to the book anyway.

www.bookdepository.com/Travesti-Don-Kulick/9780226461007

sleepingdragons · 16/06/2018 20:49

Sheila Jeffreys was saying the other day, that trans is essentially a US thing - exported along with the rest of the cultural imperialism (I'm paraphrasing!)

She was saying that in many non-English speaking countries, there isn't even a difference a word for gender - so there's no such thing as a gender identity.

She wasn't talking specifically about European countries though, at the time she was talking about Indonesia.

Here's the video of Sheila Jeffries. www.facebook.com/DRradfem/videos/2157764721109127/

I'm also curious what's going on in the rest of Europe. Does anyone know?

Rufffles · 16/06/2018 20:55

I am a Brit who studied Spanish to quite an advanced level several years ago. I've only recently noticed the trend of using the @ symbol in informal written Spanish to denote a mix of males and females. For example, "hello friends" can be written as "hola amig@s". I appreciate this is slightly off topic, but thought it might be interesting to mention.

LinoleumBlownapart · 16/06/2018 21:10

moofolk just realised a small animal is a bicho like we would use "beastie", not bicha, that woúld be an unfortunate slip up in a pre-school classroom Grin

I've seen that in Portuguese too Rufffles, I thought it was just a funky way of writing amigas. But now I come to think of it, it is used for both, I've seen it a lot in WhatsApp groups.

LuMarie · 16/06/2018 21:17

Yes french people adhere to the language rules properly, all nouns are masculine or feminine, or plural. There are also the formal and informal words, "tu" and "vous" is the basic example.

Speak to a child always using "tu" (and the tu version of all the words to match, verb etc)

Speak to an adult or elder formally using "vous" (and all vows matches)

Say "vous" the first time introduced in a situation where wish to be polite, but then switch to "tu" (and all matching words!) otherwise the repeated "vous" has sense of keeping a person at a distance, rather than continuing to be polite.

"Ils" does not mean "The males", it means "They i.e. a mixture or males". "Elles" indicates a plural group of females, but I make the mistake occasionally when speaking (not my first language) and no one cares.

It comes from latin roots of the language. It is a big foundation of the language - far beyond describing a person as male or female in the example your child is learning. This foundation and the next steps such as "I am a happy child" (happy will change in ending depending on whether use masculine or feminine version of child) are very important. It is really not about how the noun identifies, the vast majority of nouns are not people, it's about the structure and grammar!

Adjectives match, pronouns match, verbs match in certain situations, all the words connecting to a noun match...

to the noun
at the noun
of the noun
of which (referring to the noun)
to which (referring to the noun)
my noun
nouns verb-ed
the noun that/who another noun verb-ed

..... and so on for the rest of ma vie!

It's masculine/feminine and singular or plural.

So no, it is all going nowhere, it's a central part of the language. Mistakes with all of these are seen as ridiculously basic can't speak or use language (with understanding in personal situation because at least you're trying, but not ideal in an exam as you'll fail). Or sometimes an error with all the words can result in saying or writing something nonsensical and not understood. This is because french speakers are automatically forming their understanding based on the all the words in a sentence and often the noun isn't directly used, so the other words indicate which noun within a context of many is being referred to.

Plus every exam will be failed when writing, at every level! It's not about men and women or anywhere in between, it's just language and grammar.

Really, it's not an equality thing, unless anyone wants to start arguing of the rights of a table of a chair.

I had a teacher at high school who said, when you lean the noun, don't just learn the word "noun", but also the word for "the noun". Some of the best advice to go anywhere in the language, at any level!

So "un table" and "une chaise". Learn vocab this way or fall apart after basic "my name is" exchange.

For the plural group of nouns, people or otherwise, taking "They" as an example. "Ils" means and is understood to mean a group of nouns that is either mixed or masculine. It is not understood or used as exclusively masculine. "Elles" is used for exclusively feminine nouns. Remember these nouns are more often objects than people.

The only changes to the language have been to add a male/female version of a word that was, as originally assigned, is considered limiting or not quite grammatically correct. "Femme de menage" , "woman who cleans" is a hangover from more sexist times, so for politeness ways around this are used. Midwife in english, same problem. Rare but happens in all languages, it's not the grammar.

""Writer" didn't originally have a masculine/feminine noun variation, it does now. Put an "e" on the end. No one really minds though for words like these because it's new, so both are correct grammatically. Choose as you prefer and so long as all your other words match, the meaning is "writer", that's all.

Trans words are not trying to undermine feminist words, just as trans are not trying to undermine feminism (don't start with the crazy please!).

qumquat · 16/06/2018 22:46

There's an interesting Ted talk where the adjectives people use to describe a bridge are compared where the word is feminine or masculine. Eg. In German where it is feminine people will describe a bridge as beautiful or elegant, whereas in French where it is masculine people are more likely to describe a bridge as strong or impressive. So objects having gender does seem to make a difference to people's perceptions. It's a fascinating talk I will try to find a link.

Wanderabout · 16/06/2018 22:52

There are language activists in France trying to turn it neutral. There was an article recently, The Economist I think.

qumquat · 16/06/2018 22:56

"For the plural group of nouns, people or otherwise, taking "They" as an example. "Ils" means and is understood to mean a group of nouns that is either mixed or masculine. It is not understood or used as exclusively masculine. "Elles" is used for exclusively feminine nouns. Remember these nouns are more often objects than people."

Sorry for the multiple posts, but the fact that 'ils' means masculine and feminine while 'elles' means only feminine is not accidental. Languages are formed by cultures. I'm not staying it's due to the culture of modern France or Spain but it's absolutely reflective of the culture in which the language originated.

In the modern day it perpetuates the idea of man as default human. I bet a lot of French and Spanish men would have issues about being described as Elles/Ellas and I don't think their objections would be entirely grammar based!