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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

How are gendered languages like French dealing with the trans agenda

69 replies

StealthPolarBear · 16/06/2018 08:59

Just helping ds with his homework and there is a different sentence depending on whether you're a boy or a girl to say "I am an only child". Are the French trans community pushing through changes.

OP posts:
dolorsit · 16/06/2018 23:12

LuMarie,

I've just lost a very long post and I'm typing on my phone.

I'm not suggesting that trans people are trying to change the language - I was wondering if the French are having the same discussion about using a gender neutral pronoun, when as far as I recall there is no such thing.

I know a female who is non-binary, if I say "she" I get told to use " they" instead. It occurred to me that if we were both French it wouldn't be an issue.

I realise I probably didn't explain well but I'm on my phone. I've been wondering for years, long before all this trans stuff, if the French had the same debate as we English speakers about stopping writing he/his/him when talking about a generic professional eg pilot, doctor, engineer.

I hope you don't mind but I'd like to ask you for some clarification when I'm on the computer. I think you may have answered my question - in which case Thanks!

I realise that the discussion can get confusing as we are talking about "gender" in French grammar unrelated to sex/identity whilst in English there is an argument about pronouns relating to the sex/ identity of an individual.

miri1985 · 16/06/2018 23:13

I don't imagine that French will change in France but I wonder given Canada's policies will they try to implement their own changes to the language in Canada.

dolorsit · 16/06/2018 23:23

Arrgh many more posts whilst writing that. Thank you all. I'm going to read in the morning when not so tired.

Sometimes I wish that I still only knew the word "gender" as a grammatical concept rather than all this identity stuff.

On the other hand it does brighten my day when someone introduces themselves with "my personal pronouns are he, his, him"

sleepingdragons · 17/06/2018 00:05

I wonder given Canada's policies will they try to implement their own changes to the language in Canada.

Really good point.

sleepingdragons · 17/06/2018 00:07

Trans words are not trying to undermine feminist words, just as trans are not trying to undermine feminism (don't start with the crazy please!)

You've not being following the debate (such as it is) then.

Trans politics & intersectionality is all about undermining feminism.

LinoleumBlownapart · 17/06/2018 00:09

You've sparked my interests. I've been reading a few Brazilian articles about this now. Apparently has a new gender neutral pronoun of "hen" is being used in Sweden, replacinb Han and hon for non binary. Better than "they" . Brazil is looking at how this could be introduced into Portuguese but it's difficult, something like ill, I would think.

walnutwood · 17/06/2018 00:12

I hate it when I am in a group of women and we are referred to as guys

Twotabbycats · 17/06/2018 00:47

There is no 'gender neutral' word for 'they' in French; as previously mentioned it is either 'ils' if the group is all masculine or mixed masculine and feminine, or 'elles' if just feminine. They are just plural versions of the singular il (he) and elle (she). I'm not aware of a change of language by trans people to get around this, which pleases me as I detest the grammatically incorrect use of the singular gender neutral 'they' in English.

However I don't think it's been mentioned yet that the French use the term 'one' much more than the English do - it's not an archaic term and comes up often in everyday speech. It's used variously instead of je (I) and the non-specific 'you'. I can see that being adopted as the neutral pronoun of choice.

Lots of official literature uses the s/he format with extra letters in brackets for agreeing adjectives, which can make things tricky to read but at least they are trying.

Also agree with PPs that jobs that used to be masculine, eg docteur, have almost all taken on widely used feminine versions, so female doctors are now referred to as (la) docteuresse, which saves tying oneself in knots trying to decide whether to refer to said female doctor as lui (him) because docteur is male, or elle because she, personally, is female.

DJLippy · 17/06/2018 00:58

Great thread I was having this conversation with a French woman on Thursday who said that language was VERY MUCH being policed - at least in LGBT spaces.

Adjectives (and nouns) are gendered which she said she finds really weird because they have male/female forms that are clashing with obvious sex of the speaker.

LuMarie · 17/06/2018 01:14

Hi @dolorsit

You sound like a linguist yourself! Languages are fascinating, I agree.

Everyone seems to discussing languages out of interest and respect, nothing unpleasant here, so it seemed reasonably safe to make a joke given all the general silliness that has appeared in other places. I didn't think you were suggesting anything.

My impression is that the French are very proud of the language. They are very proud of all things French! It's not unusual to find young people at parties discussing grammar, along with boyfriends and girlfriends or how crazy expensive Paris apartments are.

Language is heavily emphasised in schools and children have to go to school from a young age. Macron did recently talk about putting more emphasis on the French language both in France and globally, but I think that was mostly talk than anything, as it is already culturally important in France and he speaks english everywhere he goes!

In general there is already respect and care within french people for all things french, that includes the language.

Whilst there are varying accents, there is not the same variation of use and inability to use grammar as we see in the english language. French people know their language and it is important to them. Grammar is always correct, it is an important part of the culture and identity.

On the metro people still read, still too many phones unfortunately, but books have not disappeared. Young people read, there are bookstores everywhere in Paris and second hand classic novels are very popular. Every french home and apartment tends to have books. All this plus correct grammar important enough to be discussed at trendy parties, oh my I have found my spiritual home.

Even the slang used in text messages and so on is fairly uniform and has rules! It isn't used to replace correct use of the language and not appropriate in general situations. Any suggestions of changing the language are not really well appreciated, for no underhand reason. It is simply the strong connections between language, culture and identity.

The language developed, as with several other latin based european languages, with gendered words, across all word groups. Everything agrees as I said and often the gender of words guides the understanding of what is being referred to. We do the same subtly in english too, simply in a different way, so that we are understood. Otherwise everyone would be lost.

Gender of words really isn't anything to do with humans as the language is used. The origins of a word being masculine or feminine is fascinating and yes often connected to ancient views of masculinity or femininity. Le soleil and la lune for example, in many cultures and traditions the sun is a masculine energy and the moon feminine. However there is no current day connection to equality or inequality. I find that if I or a french person is clarifying or referring to a word taking a masculine or feminine form or agreement, we say "masculine" or "feminine". It isn't male or female, the terms are really just grammatical descriptions in the context of the language.

It's true that there isn't a personal pronoun without gender such as "they" in english. There are gender neutral words for "who", "them" and a few others, but the "who" and "them" will already have been identified as masculine, feminine, singular or plural (except in the case of plural, but after another sentence, agreement of words will make the subjects and objects clear).

Changing the language to adapt for the trans or non binary community isn't really a discussion as far as I have experienced. Everywhere has its conversations and current discussion, but this just isn't currently one of them as far as I can tell. For a trans person, they choose their identity, no one cares. It's France, be french, after that you can do what you like. All the personal words will be used to suit what a person chooses.

There are prejudices within and against certain communities of course, but how individuals identify within the language or the use of gender words is not something that I have come across.

For non-binary, honestly this is so new that I haven't heard it discussed at all and the masculine feminine aspect to grammar is so in depth that I think it would be very difficult to remove this. So I don't know how this would work.

So, I would be very surprised to see the fundamentals of the language changed, not for any reasons of bias against anyone, but because of the regard for the language (again, young people discussing finer points of grammar at trendy parties!) and the inherent nature of the language.

LaSqrrl · 17/06/2018 01:20

Furx re: German
All professions are gendered, like actor and actress in English, but extending to doctor, teacher, engineer etc.

Yes, but if it is a female doctor you are addressing, it is Frau Doctor.
As for the plurals, yes they share the same form 'die', and I always thought of it as 'feminine' or 'plural' (ie a dual purpose), and not that everything 'becomes' feminine in the multiple case. It is a long time since I have spoken any German though.

BennySF · 17/06/2018 05:50

the fact that 'ils' means masculine and feminine while 'elles' means only feminine is not accidental. Languages are formed by cultures. I'm not staying it's due to the culture of modern France or Spain but it's absolutely reflective of the culture in which the language originated.

In the modern day it perpetuates the idea of man as default human.

I agree with this.

I bet a lot of French and Spanish men would have issues about being described as Elles/Ellas and I don't think their objections would be entirely grammar based!

This is more complicated, at least in French. Of course people won't like it if someone uses the wrong pronouns to talk about them, but there are a lot of words and expressions that are feminine and still apply when talking about both men and women, including a group of men only or a single man.
The most common example beeing the word for "people" or "person" (personne). It's feminine, so when talking about an unspecified group of people, or a specific person, it's not rare to use the feminine even if you know you're talking about men.

There is a bigger disconnection in French between male/female and masculine/feminine. Animal names are a good example of this. Some have different names for the different genders: lion/lionne (lion/lioness) or chat/chatte (male cat/female cat)
A lot of them are either male or female but still apply to all the individuals of the species: "un hibou" (male word) for a female owl. "une antilope" (female word) for a male antelope.

LuMarie · 17/06/2018 06:12

French is not going to change. I’ll skip the lengthy grammar and culture discussion and just stress that!

In France a doctor is “médecin”. “One” isn’t used often if at all, if you mean the third person singular. It is used for an informal “we”.

There may be a conversation within a community, but within larger scale, no it isn’t a conversation or even and issue and no, french will not change!

alexpolistigers · 17/06/2018 06:54

LuMarie what on earth makes you think that French won't change?

I am struggling to find even one example of a language that has not changed. They all change over time, and French is no exception. Do you speak the same way today as the language used by Balzac? Or De Gaulle? Changes can be driven by society and circumstances: if society deems gendered changes necessary, then they will happen.

alexpolistigers · 17/06/2018 06:59

I speak a highly inflected language. There are three grammatical genders: masculine, feminine and neuter. In my experience, when people want to avoid a gender, then they use a neuter noun. The generic words for 'baby' and 'child' are both neuter, and there is a possible neuter word for 'person'.

Re professions, it used to be that you had to use the masculine form of words like doctor or even MP but give it a feminine article. But feminists have been fighting against this, and a number of feminine nohns have been jntroduced and are gradually taking root.

CaitlynsCat · 17/06/2018 07:15

sleepingdragons, Indonesia uses 'gender'. Despite this being an existing word referring to a musical instrument.

Gender is a modern, nonsense made-up concept in ALL languages. It's not so much US imperialism as the fact that this is a concept invented in the last few decades and spread.

Mominatrix · 17/06/2018 07:16

On the metro people still read, still too many phones unfortunately, but books have not disappeared. Young people read, there are bookstores everywhere in Paris and second hand classic novels are very popular. Every french home and apartment tends to have books. All this plus correct grammar important enough to be discussed at trendy parties, oh my I have found my spiritual home.

This might be your experience of Paris/large cities, but it is certainly not applicable to every French household. I know as I am married to a Frenchman whose family are working class and from the sticks and this definitely does not apply to them or their town in general.

The French language is changing and trying to modernise - just look at the simplification of rules on accents and spellings which occurred recently (www.theguardian.com/world/2016/feb/05/not-the-oignon-fury-france-changes-2000-spellings-ditches-circumflex). There is a push to make French gender neutral(www.economist.com/europe/2018/05/19/language-activists-are-trying-to-make-french-gender-neutral andwww.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2017/11/inclusive-writing-france-feminism/545048/) which might also cause a change in the structure of the language.

Languages are not stagnant and do adapt with changing times.

CaitlynsCat · 17/06/2018 07:21

id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identitas_gender Note that both 'identitas' and 'gender' are alien words to Indonesian language. Not only is 'gender' a foreign concept, but so is the idea of an 'identity'.

LuMarie · 17/06/2018 07:26

Do you speak french properly? It is highly structured around masculin/féminin words. Removing this would upend the language.

I tried to write politely re books in homes. In my experience, rural farms to Paris chic and everywhere in between, everyone has books at home. Language is part of culture and identity.

So to answer quickly because I’m starting to find this silly. I say this not due to my french husband (yes I have one too, he qualifies me for nada, I’m my own person), but on my experience as a french citizen, my education, french studies, language studies, general knowledge.

Oh and books.

qumquat · 17/06/2018 07:29

I don't know anything about attitudes to trans in French but I agree that French changes like every other language. Despite the best efforts of the Academy Francaise! I highly recommend the film The Class which is a documentary on a class in a school in the Paris banlieu (it's brilliant but utterly depressing). Safe to say the kids are not fans of the endless grammar lessons!

qumquat · 17/06/2018 07:32

And before I'm questioned on my knowledge of France and French education. I speak French and spend a lot of time there (in those self same banlieu). I have a French brother in law and two nieces in the French school system.

LuMarie · 17/06/2018 07:40

Yes languages evolve, but they are not completely upended by wiping out central grammatical concepts.

That wouldn’t be an evolution, it would be trying to recreate an entirely new language.

The default male idea in many languages and cultures is there of course. Even USA, “ all men are created equal “. We know where these notions come from as noted in previous post, we simply now interpret them to mean “people” where culture has evolved to allow the words innocuous meaning.

For trans attitudes in France, really I’ve seen and heard no arguing in any french press or discussion. The arguing notion seems to be originating from radicals, USA mostly. The impression is being given that it’s a huge battle for humankind, the reality is that it’s a matter of developing respect and understanding for a minority group.

There is also zero interest within french current discussion (not English language English speaking target audience) for changing the language in any drastic way, or for this subject.

Mominatrix · 17/06/2018 07:43

Yes, I speak French properly - in fact I had to take a test in speaking French in order to get citizenship which I more than did well on. I spent a year in a French uni and had to take oral exams. Please don’t patronise me. Not all French people are highly intellectual and book obsessed and to say they all are is ludicrous - just as not all Americans are obese anti-intellectuals. Taking a generalisation and applying it to every member of a population is silly and wrong, and there really is no need to take a critique of such on overgeneralisation so personally is bizarre.

qumquat · 17/06/2018 07:44

Sorry! Frustrated linguistics here getting excited! I used to live in Indonesia and if I recall correctly there are no separate pronouns for she and he anyway. Verbs don't decline they are always in the same form. Making plurals just involves saying the word twice, and you form the past tense by using the word yesterday and the future tense by using the word tomorrow. It's a brilliant language! It's a portmanteau language brought in to unify a very disparate country so hasn't evolved a complex grammar.

Local languages are much more complex grammatically, but are generally much more concerned with differentiating by status and age rather than sex. The word you might use for 'eat' would depend on a complex (to me) calculation of the relative age amd status of yourself and the person youre speaking to. There are also traditional names for the first, second third born etc in a family which don't vary according to sex.

LuMarie · 17/06/2018 07:47

In laws in the school system does not a french person make.

In what ways, other than those small adjustments already mentioned, do you see the french language changing? Where in “the sticks” where it isn’t common to have books at home as you describe it, has the matter of LGBT and minority protections, or french culture and civilisation, been a source of varied conversation?

We can discuss in french if you prefer.