Joe Rogan on trans athletes

[Ireneony]

Apologies if this has already been discussed, but has anyone seen this video of Joe Rogan and others discussing trans athletes and women's sports? I think it was a good discussion and can't understand how someone could still scream bigotry at these very valid points. Hope the link works

*I don't think a man should be able to get his penis removed and then beat the shit out of women. Bottom line"

Enjoying the unintentional (intentional?) pun at the end.....

And yes, it is just common sense.... so why do the various sporting bodies not just recognise this?????? Still don't understand

*I don't think a man should be able to get his penis removed and then beat the shit out of women. Bottom line"

Enjoying the unintentional (intentional?) pun at the end.....

And yes, it is just common sense.... so why do the various sporting bodies not just recognise this?????? Still don't understand

DP listens to Joe Rogan a lot, so I've heard a fair few too - the podcasts veer from interesting interviews/chats to sitting there talking rubbish about things they clearly know very little about, to bizarre conspiracy theory level stuff (Joe seems to have some slightly out-there opinions on some things).

I wouldn't really hold him up as an authority on anything, and yeah, I don't agree with all of his thoughts around drug taking and conspiracy stuff, but he's no worse than anyone else, and he's willing to talk to lots of people and he's willing to jump in with his own opinions and talk, and that's not so bad.

We have just got to embrace the more people saying the obvious - like it's just not fair someone with a male body beating the shit out of women (as Joe did) - the better........ and if that have big audiences even better!

We can't afford to choose our allies.... just peak trans as many as we can in every direction! And celebrate that the more people speak out, the more others will follow..... And that it is NOT a coincidence that it is the mavericks/far right/ etc who speak loudly at the moment while many of the progressives hesitate .... they will come round, as so many of us have

Hi sorry don't have time to reply at the moment as blacking our boat but might come back later to this. Real life does get in the way. Just because someone says something you agree with does not make them a good person and there are a few issues with him. But I am. Not saying he is a monster, just that it's importent to know people's stand points

I don't want to make bedfellows with people who are very toxic and nasty, or are coming at this from an angle of hatred and fear. That's not what this is thankfully.

Rogan knows what he's talking about when it comes to MMA and this discussion is reasonable.

As the IOC have just halved acceptable testosterone levels for female competitors, I wonder if the natural conclusion to the current thought on sports sex segregation may be to just start categorising people by their serum testosterone levels rather than by male/female. For example it could be

I've watched a few of his video's about trans athletes. I think he presents the topic well and he's reaching a wide audience which can only be a good thing.

I like what he says about the Olympic organizers, I wonder why they are such authorities on anything!

@Ireneony
'As the IOC have just halved acceptable testosterone levels for female competitors, I wonder if the natural conclusion to the current thought on sports sex segregation may be to just start categorising people by their serum testosterone levels rather than by male/female.'

Who would that benefit and who would that disavantage?

'I wonder if this is what trans rights advocates would welcome.'

I think they would welcome something that supports their view.

'I don't think I would mind this system myself?'

Are you one of the athletes that would be advantaged or disadvantaged? Because to me this would massively disadvantage female athletes and I cannot see how that is scientific or fair.

'There needs to be more research though into the possible advantages of going through male puberty and training athletically as a male before transitioning and also the other size strength and weight advantages retained in a biologically male physique.' I agree but I think there the evidence is already there, it is not all about testosterone.

The reduction in testosterone does not really effect trans woman as the levels are usually well below that figure so it as made no difference. It as effected a number of woman who have intersex conditions. These are woman who can now not compete. Throughout the Olympic history such rules have been used to police woman who are not female enough or womanly in what is the social norm. This is always the issue with policing woman's bodies in this way

@Bespin surely the 'policing' comes in because some people have an additional advantage. I don't think this thread is specifically about intersex people. It's about those born make but competing against women. That's not fair on women, surely?

Born male the thread is bout trans athletes.

I listen to Joe Rogan, I don’t agree with everything he says but he Is very open to listening to other people’s view points around issues. He has guests on that he doesn’t always agree with but he doesn’t use them to make himself look good, he often just hangs out and smoke weed and they talk about whole ranges of topics and issues. He did a really good interview with one of the exiled daughters of the Westboro Baptist Church.

I alway don’t understand the need to only listen to people that you agree with 100% of the time. People have different opinions and view points, it’s ok.

@CaptainMarvelDanvers can you link to westborou Baptist thing or p.m. me? Please. My gay relative loves hearing about them and laughing.

@Italiangreyhound

It’s over two hours long but really interesting.

I wonder if the natural conclusion to the current thought on sports sex segregation may be to just start categorising people by their serum testosterone levels rather than by male/female

To quote Joe Rogan himself
"If you had a dick at one point in your life you have all the physical advantages that come with having a dick"
Including height, longer arm span, larger hands, greater lung capacity, bigger feet, greater muscle/bone density, better efficiency in processing oxygen, all of which benefit to born males regardless of testosterone levels.

Focusing on testosterone is very limited. Sex categories are fair.

Thanks @CaptainMarvelDanvers

@Serfisafleur "Focusing on testosterone is very limited. Sex categories are fair." Totally agree.

To be honest, I'm mostly just thinking out loud here and trying to get my head round how the sports bodies are reconciling mixed sex sports with science. My earlier comment about segregating sports entirely by testosterone levels meant that's how it seems to be going, and if it is really only about testosterone levels giving the advantage is that a fairer way to do it? I couldn't find anything about what typical testosterone levels for a trans person recieving hormone treatment for X amount of years was likely to be so don't really know what category that would put them in and was mainly going by the headlines suggesting that the new guidelines would be putting trans people (and intersex) outside of the women's category. Clearly I need to look at it further.

Obviously sex segregation in sports exists for actual physical reasons so you'd think identity shouldn't come into it.

It seems they're basing everything on testosterone levels alone which just doesn't seem right. I did find an article where a Dr involved in the IOC said more study was needed and they may have jumped the gun on being so inclusive, and I think some more studies were due to start? I'll try to find a link to it.

Will come back to this again tomorrow as am not very well atm but thanks for joining in the discussion.

Get well soon.

I'm listening @CaptainMarvelDanvers I don't want to derail but I did want to say that I found this really good....

www.ted.com/talks/megan_phelps_roper_i_grew_up_in_the_westboro_baptist_church_here_s_why_i_left/transcript?language=en

It's where Megan Phelps-Roper talks about her life in the Westboro Baptist Church and how she left.

I think it has something valuable to say which could contribute to the wider discussion around trans rights and women's rights. Not necessarily about sports (which is why I don't want to derail). However, for general discussions it does feel she brings something of use as she explains the four things her friends on Twitter did differently which led her to leave the Westboro Baptist Church and how these four things helped her to have more open discussions.

Annoyingly, I can't find the exact article now that I was reading before. However there are a number of different articles on the subject that have a lot of conflicting information. I think the overall take away is that more study is needed in order to definitively say how much testosterone and other factors make a difference to performance in trans athletes which is incredibly frustrating!

Anyone with eyes and a brain understands that there clearly is going to be advantages to spending a large part of your life living and training as a man, which I think the above video addresses really well. Sure, let's get the imperical data together to back that up but in the meantime how is it in anyway ok to allow women's sports to start to become dominated by people who clearly do have a sex based advantage? Why couldn't we have made them wait before joining in, until we fully understood all the facts about transitioning and it's effects on performance? It just goes to show no one gives a shit about women and girls sporting ability or achievement or right to a fair game and it's depressing.

Women with conditions that cause higher testosterone levels like Caster Semaya get dragged into it as well and this is why I say I wonder if the sporting world is going to move towards t level based categories for some sports in order to be more inclusive?

I don't mind a bit of thread derailing, my mind tends to go off in all sorts of tangents anyway! But yes I agree with you GardenGeek that perhaps the way forward is to recognise sex and gender as two different things completely which will help retain sex based protections in the places that it matters such as sports, health, etc but recognise gender as a social concept. I would elaborate on that more but feeling pretty lousy today and that's as much as I can think about right now!

That TED talk is fantastic, Italian. Thanks for the link. I'm not familiar with Rogan but am looking forward to listening to the interview OP. I have a lot of respect for the quilliam guy.

Just listened to Rogan. Those men totally get it. I note how unafraid they are to express their POV in comparison to women in similar positions.

Just listened. Am vaguely aware of Rogan as husband number 3 is a vague follower of MMA (trained seriously but didn’t compete about 20 years ago). He made me get up at stupid o’clock to watch MacGregor v Mayweather even though everyone knew Mayweather would win - there are so many disciplines and categories in combat sports, due to a bizarre combination of both safety and making the betting odds even.

Rogan might well talk about all sorts of stuff he knows little about, on MMA however, he is a recognised expert. It’s his bit of the world.

I enjoyed his very sensible opinions, as well as his frank reports of the abuse he received for airing those opinions. I think the panel managed to walk a line between straight talk and politeness (correcting their prononoun use). They also name checked feminists for recognising the issues first and and speaking out despite the climate.

It enrages me that we women cannot speak as freely as these chaps do, out of fear of personal safety. I hate that we need male allies in this, but we do.