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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

David Aaronovitch comment in Times

77 replies

Igneococcus · 14/06/2018 06:15

David Aaronovitch in today's Times about free speech and the GRA:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/assaults-on-free-speech-are-led-by-the-left-l2r8t9t9p?shareToken=d99c908ebaf10ccf760a000cb98a2bd1

OP posts:
BoreOfWhabylon · 14/06/2018 09:10

Excellent article. Thank you David Aaronovitch.

We are being heard. The tide has turned.

hackmum · 14/06/2018 09:16

RogerAllamsFangirl: "But I noted that the article carefully didn't comment on the substantive issue, only the #nodebate tactic."

Agreed, he was very careful not to come down one side or the other. In fact, I wonder how well-informed he is about it - he mentions the sport issue, but doesn't seem aware that male-bodied athletes are already competing against women.

PS I'm a Roger Allam fan as well.

busyboysmum · 14/06/2018 09:21

There's another interesting article in the Times today which might shed some light on why it is so hard to debate with today's youth:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/students-stay-silent-in-seminars-over-fear-they-will-cause-offence-3m0dptwzr

“From an early age, this generation of young people has been told that to offend someone, hurt their feelings, is a cultural crime,” he said. “They fail to distinguish between opinion and personality, so they think critiquing an argument is criticising a person."

I think the above point is crucial.

R0wantrees · 14/06/2018 09:22

from the article, DA writes:

"But Mslexia’s formulation gave perfect shape to the problem that I’d been thinking about in these past few months as chairman of Index on Censorship, the free speech advocacy organisation. Why is it that some of the people who should be most protective of free speech and actual open debate are now almost hostile to it in practice?"

I was interested to hear of the organisation 'The Index of Censorship'

from their website:
"Index on Censorship is a nonprofit that campaigns for and defends free expression worldwide. We publish work by censored writers and artists, promote debate, and monitor threats to free speech.

We believe that everyone should be free to express themselves without fear of harm or persecution – no matter what their views.

Index’s aim is to raise awareness about threats to free expression and the value of free speech as the first step to tackling censorship."
www.indexoncensorship.org/what-we-do/

The Times article concludes:
"Increasingly the argument is made that in countries like Britain and the US an agitation for free speech is really an agitation for angry, powerful white men. It is supposedly a licence for them to abuse others.

But the problem is that this argument is both untrue in itself and unhistorical. In this country, as elsewhere, censorship has mostly been used against the inconvenient and the subversive, from the censored plays of Joe Orton 50 years ago to the Sikh woman author of the play Behzti, which was forced out of theatres in 2004. In the US in the McCarthy era, black and progressive playwrights and authors faced Mslexia-style de-sponsorship for being inconsistent with anti-red ethoses. And today, wherever you get a rising ethno-nationalist tide, from Poland to Russia via Turkey, it’s the non-patriotic minorities who end up gagged.

This freedom boat, I’ve realised over the past half decade, is the same boat for all of us, even if we sit in different parts. Sink it, and we’re all drowned. There’s no “but” after “open debate”."

Kettlepotblackagain · 14/06/2018 09:25

As someone said in a previous thread, facts are transphobic. Sigh.

I think we should change the meaning of transphobic. Transphobic now means stating biological, scientific fact. I said so, therefore it is.

OP posts:
FlyTipper · 14/06/2018 09:36

I don't like this article. It illustrates yet again why I feel so uneasy about MN posters' insistence on supporting any commentator with a GC stance.

Aaronovitch neatly links Shriver's deselection with the GRA debate and silencing. But it's just not the same thing. Mslexia has every right in a FREE society to have any person it sees fit judging its short story competition. Period. The GRA debate is degrading into a fight as certain groups wish to supress the views of other groups.

Shriver is free to talk about what she wants. Mslexia is free to react based on her words.

You are free to say what you want, you are not free to choose the reaction to your words. Isn't that what a free society is about?

Interpreting the meaning behind Aaronovitch's article, I see a thinly disguised attack on the left. He is using the GC debate to push readers rightwards.

Kettlepotblackagain · 14/06/2018 09:39

I’m going to brace myself for howls of transphobia in the comments section, the aggression, the insults and the demands for silence. Because that really is all they have. They have nothing compared to the supremely bright, articulate and knowledgable women here - and they know it or else they wouldn’t engage. I sincerely hope this is a sign that the backlash is coming.

I’m relatively new to the forum, but I have been a feminist for years and have followed the Gender Critical stance for among time. I think it was catapulted into the public sphere particularly with the appearance of Jenner, so mainly since then, and in the years that I have read, discussed and debated with others, I cannot recall one time when anyone who supports the ‘Trans women are women’ stance outlining a concise, clear and well evaluated argument supported by scientific, peer reviewed evidence. Explaining it calmly, listening and responding to criticism and accepting others views but succinctly arguing their case. Never. Just cries of transphobe.

I hope this article highlights that finally, finally, we are seeing a glimmer of hope, because it’s one thing to debate on Twitter, but it’s another when delusions become reality and you demand an actual change in the law, force yourselves into women’s safe spaces and then demand no debate.

As always, freedom of speech to men actually men’s that they shape the narrative and women will comply. It saddens me deeply that so many women are actually on board with this.

LangCleg · 14/06/2018 09:41

I see a thinly disguised attack on the left.

It is an attack.

It is not thinly disguised.

It is intended to be an attack on the authoritarian wing of the left - which includes, but is not limited to, issues of de-platforming and about trans legislation.

Are you saying that he shouldn't attack authoritarianism if he doesn't like it?

hackmum · 14/06/2018 09:47

FlyTipper: "Aaronovitch neatly links Shriver's deselection with the GRA debate and silencing. But it's just not the same thing."

I agree with you. It's not the same thing at all. Shriver could have made her point in a much less inflammatory way. A magazine like Mslexia won't want to piss off your readership by having a competition judge who implies that people from minority groups aren't as good at writing as people from mainstream backgrounds.

But I'm slightly going to give Aaronovitch the benefit of the doubt. Columnists always need a news hook, and it was probably quite handy for him that the Shriver thing came along, so he could band the two stories together.

hackmum · 14/06/2018 09:48

*its readership

Deathgrip · 14/06/2018 09:48

He is using the GC debate to push readers rightwards.

I disagree. I am as left as they come. There is no pushing me rightwards, and I am certainly not one of those willing to throw women, the poor and the disabled under the bus by refusing to vote Labour over this issue.

However, I am increasingly appalled by the vitriol I see in lefty groups online towards anyone who tries to have a discussion - even when it’s done gently and alongside affirming the rights of trans people. Its disgraceful and he’s utterly correct.

KittyKlaws · 14/06/2018 10:03

I agree with you. It's not the same thing at all. Shriver could have made her point in a much less inflammatory way. A magazine like Mslexia won't want to piss off your readership by having a competition judge who implies that people from minority groups aren't as good at writing as people from mainstream backgrounds.

But freedom of speech is just that - freedom to say what you believe in your own way. I'm not agreeing with Shriver but 'tone policing' is also detrimental to freedom of speech. I know what you are saying you feel MsLexia was somewhat justified due to the inflammatory nature of the comments but when we start telling writers (or anyone) HOW they can express themselves (to be more palatable) it is very, very close to complete censorship.

nauticant · 14/06/2018 10:10

He is using the GC debate to push readers rightwards.

I'm not going to look at this and as my deciding thought apply a filter of "is this left thinking and therefore good, or is it right-thinking and therefore bad?".

If something looks authoritarian and controlling, that's enough for me to oppose it, wherever it comes from.

R0wantrees · 14/06/2018 10:10

Lionel Shriver was intervewed on R4 Today program along with Debbie Taylor the editor of the magazine Mslexia.

Shriver stresses her concern is with quotas. That the arithmetic goal of a quota system has serious negative consequences.

Taylor said their issue that they have is with Shrivers 'aggressive and mocking language... which creates a hostile environment for all women writers"

She acknowledged that the Shriver's quote was taken out of context. That they had invited Shriver because of the quality of her writing and she liked the way Shriver's writing stirred up debate.

Taylor said they had to withdraw the invitation because of the way the article had being taken up by the media has created an atmosphere which will be discouraging for a particular groups of women writers. That they definitely don't want to exclude certain groups of women writers.

Taylor hghlighted the effect of the 'storm itself'

Shriver said in response to claims she was discouraging women and other minorities, "nothing could be further from the truth"

Interview is at 2:45
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0b5qnfv

R0wantrees · 14/06/2018 10:26

With regards the specific issue of the GRA, censorship/silencing/no debate is a cross-party issue:

see Maria Miller's interview from last year
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2993425-Maria-Miller-interviewed-by-Janice-Turner-full-text

DailyMailClickbait · 14/06/2018 10:31

They like the way that Shriver's writing stirred up debate, until it stirred up a debate that they didn't want to have.

I wince when I see online comments criticising "liberals" for being the architects of situations just like this, because it's such a handy stick to beat us with: That we are all for free speech until that speech offends us.

I disagree profoundly and passionately with the EDL. Do I want to see them marching through towns and cities waving racist and Islamophobic banners? No, I don't. But if you close them down and refuse them a platform then you "other" people who think they have a genuine point - and all it serves to do is reinforce their beliefs. Plus it serves to alienate people who have genuine concerns and grievances but dare not voice them for being shouted down for discrimination - and pushes them into the arms of minority groups as the only safe place that their voice will be heard.

I'm all too aware that people in favour of self-ID will read the above and think that I'm describing a situation which also applies to radical feminism! But the key here is the ability to debate openly and apply critical thinking: if you are willing to listen to what someone has to say and debate them on it, I think you have far more chance of reaching an understanding, than by refusing to let them speak at all.

The reality of free speech is that there will always be someone who says something that we don't agree with. We all think we are right, but that's why it is so important that debate is not just allowed but encouraged.

Beamur · 14/06/2018 10:49

I think he makes some valid and pertinent points. Free speech is under immense threat - opinion is being condemned as hate speech to shut down debate.

Pratchet · 14/06/2018 10:51

I think no platforming is definitely analogous to language policing.

R0wantrees · 14/06/2018 11:01

Current thread re Brian Paddick (LibDem peer)
"I am the subject of a formal complaint to the party about my conduct in connection with these issues, which makes it difficult for me to comment."
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a3277182-Brian-Paddick-isbeing-investigated-for-wrongthink?msgid=78646024#78646024

Pratchet · 14/06/2018 11:06

Thanks Rowan. They can't play whack a mole forever.

R0wantrees · 14/06/2018 11:29

Discussion of a recent BBC article re censorship of women by Social media (specifically Twitter):

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3262965-Good-article-today-BBC-on-the-twitter-ban-on-womens-free-speech-on-trans-issues

Current thread discussing Mumsnet's new guidelines to enable 'free but civilised' discussion:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/3276551-Mumsnet-moderation-of-trans-rights-and-gender-critical-issues

BoreOfWhabylon · 14/06/2018 11:44

Comments are up Smile

Lots of links to the petition.

Several pointings out of the false claims re transwomen deaths.

And other good stuff.

R0wantrees · 14/06/2018 12:34

David Aaronovitch is replying to some comments.