I am a woman...

[lurker33]

.. i.e. an adult human female.

What does a transwomen have in common with me that they don't have in common with a man i.e an adult human male?

I don't believe there is anything that qualifies.

I do believe, however, that I have a good deal in common with transmen, in fact the same as I have in common with all women i.e. adult human females.

Is there anyone out there that can tell me what a transwomen has in common with me, and hence convince me that I should view them as a woman?

I don't feel like a woman, or identify as a woman, before anyone brings that up, so please don't patronise me with answers to that effect.

There are loads of other threads which cover this precise topic so you might want to check those out as this question has been debated time and time again. Doubt you will get any different answers.

So peakpants in your opinion what is it makes you a woman apart from your body and socialization?

I guess that's quite telling that I've had no takers.

Or is it that people as scared to post anything in case they get banned/suspended...?

Peakpants - thank you. I've read lots of threads and never seen a satisfactory answer, so I thought I'd frame it in slightly different way (i.e.instead of what is a woman, define woman etc)

I'll go back in my box now I've had my rant. The gaslighting going on in some of these threads is really getting my goat and I needed to let off steam.

Transwomen are men! Transmen are woman! I am Spartacus etc...

A lady brain of course.
One that causes you to like pink, and frilly things and giggling.

NotTerf does it matter? Is it a good idea to start debates like this with the new three strikes and you're out rule? Especially debates that have been had over and over. You do realise that loads of people will want to try to get people to say stuff to get them banned, right?

If you are interested in what I think, I think trying to define the meaning of woman helps nobody because there will be inevitable disagreement. The point is surely to ensure that those born with female sexed bodies are appropriately protected? Well, in my view it is.

I've read lots of threads and never seen a satisfactory answer, so I thought I'd frame it in slightly different way

But I don't think framing it like this achieves some magic answer- and I have seen it framed in precisely the same way as you have many times before. The positions of the two camps are irreconcilable, that's the whole problem. Those who think trans women are women will never be swayed by a new MN definition and most on FWR will never accept that trans women are women.
What I would say, most people are not thick. They know what biology is and how it works.

being Patronised/mansplained at by men? I don’t mean extreme people like Jenner, I mean ordinary trans women in the workplace.

I’m with you OP.

2+2=4 👊🏼

speakingwoman no, I wasn't singling out either of the sexes for being patronising.

Materialist transwomen are women because they are men and can get raped too? Not sure I understand your argument.

Peakpants How can we have women only shortlists if we don't know what a woman is? I understand that the word women is used in laws so how are we supposed to know to whom they apply if we don't have a definition?

To your original question- I have no idea.
Perhaps it is because every type of women likes pink frilly clothes, sexy high heels, make up and swishy hair?
Oh, wait....

And yes we do have to keep asking and keep talking because to stfu will just mean the destruction of the true meaning of the word "woman" , and the legal and social status that goes with it.

So not shutting up and not ordering my hand maidens bonnet just yet thanks.

The actual answer:

Feminine stereotypes and expectations are applied to both by the wider society. To women because they're female and to transwomen because they're specifically asking to have them applied to them. I.e. the expectation is that both women and transwomen will wear make up most of the time.

It's not a GOOD answer, because again it exposes the sexism at the core of transgenderism ('sexist stereotypes are good if they're the ones i want'), but it's the correct one

Except that the expectations applied to transwomen are not the same as women when it comes to speaking out. If you look at the public trans people and the way that they are ‘allowed’ to express themselves, the clothes that they are ‘allowed’ to wear, the opinions they are allowed to express without criticism you can see that a completely different set of standards is being applied to them in their public life.

Babdoc I know that this isn't really the point of the discussion, but I'm interested in how you would define somebody with androgen insensitivity syndrome?

Crisps, you do know that people with intersex conditions have asked to be kept out of this debate don't you?

It's rude to continually use them to prove a very tenuous point.

A person with AIS can describe themselves (and their medical condition) in any way they like; it's up to them. Don't use them to try to prove that men can be women, because they can't.

Sorry Maryz I'm fairly new here and didnt mean to offend. I wasn't really trying to prove a point except the fact that XX=female and XY=male is not always true, and so I feel external anatomy should be focused on more than your genetic sex. In no way was I trying to compare transwomen with people who have AIS and identify as women.

Anyway, to answer OP's original question, I am a woman because I have a female body and female hormones, and honestly I don't understand how somebody can feel like a woman without those things.
Having said that, I actually disagree with pp who think that it's linked to a sexist stereotype, as there is research that indicates a transwoman's hypothalamus responds to stimuli in the same way as that of a biological woman (and vice versa for a transman).

However, I don't believe this research means that people who are very much biologically male should be allowed to use women-only spaces.

“Woman” = “Adult human female, with XX chromosomes”.
“Man” = “Adult human male with XY chromosomes”.
Anything else is just sexist societal window dressing.

So you claim to be a doctor, but you call women with AIS men and intersex people who are not XX or XY "sexist societal window dressing". Words fail me.

Don't use them to try to prove that men can be women, because they can't.

There are lots of biological differences between the sexes. Primary sex organs, secondary sex organs, hormones, etc. GC feminists pick one - different chromosomes, which they think helps their argument. When it is pointed out that there are non-transwomen who have XY chromosomes then they throw a hissy fit.

By non-transwomen I meant women who are not trans.

That's ok, Crisps; if you are new you'll soon catch up

It's just that in all these conversations when we point out that men have XY chromosomes and still have them after they "transition" (socially or physically) to "live as women" (whatever that is meant to mean), someone always pops up to say that there is no such thing as men and women defined by chromosomes. They quote intersex conditions as proof that men can become women and vice versa.

Groups supporting intersex people have asked that they be left out of the argument. They don't like transactivists using them to prove a point.

"there is research that indicates a transwoman's hypothalamus responds to stimuli in the same way as that of a biological woman (and vice versa for a transman)." - do you have a link to this? If it's the study I think you are referring to it's been pretty comprehensively debunked.

Burke et al., 2014 is the one I was thinking of www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4037295/#__ffn_sectitle

This article also cites some references regarding a biological basis for gender dysphoria, but the references are all a bit older scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=Transgender+hypothalamus&oq=Trans#d=gs_qabs&p=&u=%23p%3DovE2p5IAsc8J

Yep, that's the one.

I will try to find the debunking. It was to do with lack of a true control group, self-selection of participants and the fact that they had been treated with cross-sex hormones, the small numbers, the doubts about accurate diagnosis of gender dysphoria in children to start with, no follow up and various other difficulties/contradictions in the study which made the results questionable at best, and the conclusions worthless.