Transgenderism, transracialsm and transableism

[Poppyred85]

This is something I was mulling over while on another thread so rather than derail that one I thought I’d start a new one.
If someone born male can identify as a woman, based on an internal feeling, why is the same not true for identifying as a different race or identifying as disabled? For me, I don’t see how one can be completely accepted to be true without also accepting that it is also possible to identify as a different race or identify as having a disability. Rachel Dolezal was vilified for saying/acting as though she was black when in fact she wasn’t. Why is it any different for men or women who identify as the opposite sex?

I knew SM's post was going to be nonsense and well, YAWN.

It's completely philosophically different to say that someone has a gender identity than someone has an abnormal psychological disorder where they DELUDE themselves into thinking they're the opposite sex.

The point is you have to KNOW how to differentiate the two sexes to even HAVE a psychological problem where you think you're the wrong one.

The book is talking about abnormal psychology where someone feels they are the OPPOSITE sex. That's not the same thing as having a universal concept 'gender identity.'

Please try harder next time.

@OldCrone

Describe a male identity.
Describe a female identity.

You're on the right track to showing SM they're totally wrong.

The only way kids think they're sex is wrong is by KNOWING what sex is as a concept. They look around and understand there are two sexes and they then develop an abnormal psychological disorder which their minds assume they're the wrong sex.

It's a completely and totally different thing to claim there's a gender identity that every infant is born with. You can't have a gender identity without knowing what sex is and all these kids are doing is claiming they're the wrong SEX, which necessitates that they UNDERSTAND the fact that there are two sexes. They do NOT have a gender identity. They have an understanding of sexual dimorphism.

Rachel Dolezal's self-identification as a black woman made sense to me, and, while I can understand black people's anger at her, I think that she has been unjustly vilified. [...] She is far closer to the dysphoric trans people that we have accepted for many years, than to the TRAs that are now causing so much harm to society.

I agree with you Jelly. But the reason Dolezal was singled out and vilified is because she is female (and not 'trans anything else). Like “Daphne Shaed" who does not get vilified for the double appropriation (nor do the transdisabled transwomen either), no, Shaed gets a job instead. And possibly a load of 'beautiful and brave' comments.

And yes to what Bowl said
We dont treat any other dysmorphic disorder the way we do gender dysphoria (ie with affirmative treatment.) we don’t tell anorexics that yes, they’re a bit chubby and should cut down on food - thatd be grossly negligent.

You're on the right track to showing SM they're totally wrong.

Which is why they never answer.

You can't have a gender identity without knowing what sex is and all these kids are doing is claiming they're the wrong SEX, which necessitates that they UNDERSTAND the fact that there are two sexes.

Exactly. They see what the two sexes look like and how they behave. Some children will inevitably be more drawn to being like the people they see of the opposite sex. It doesn't mean they have a cross-sex gender identity.

A healthy society would be telling children that they can dress how they want and be whoever they want to be, regardless of whether they're a boy or a girl.

@OldCrone

It doesn't mean they have a cross-sex gender identity.

Yep. It's a simple matter of observation for children. They've learned there are two sexes and mimic behaviour.

Also, this is maybe why Blanchard sees gender dysphoria as containing a sexual orientation. It's easy to imagine that a young homosexual biological male understands male/female heterosexuality( as that's how he was created) and decides he's really a girl based on who he's sexually attracted to (males), so he mimics femininity and then develops gender dysphoria.

It fits with Blanchards typology nicely.

"They've learned there are two sexes and mimic behaviour."

Erm, don't you mean they have learned there are two genders since you are talking about behaviour? Learning about sex comes later

They are bound to associate sex with gendered behaviour though. That's the problem. Otherwise they wouldn't think they were the wrong sex. They'd assume everyone who liked feminine stuff like them had a willy under their dress/jeans

Flibberty gibbert when someone is 'assigned' male but one day realises they 'feel' they are a woman , which bit of them is actually female ? Because its not the brain, hormones, chromosomes, primary/secondary sexual characteristics?

Erm no. You clearly don't know much about children. They learn their bodies are different because of sex, not their minds are different because of ladybrain.

Can I just say while I've got you on this thread that I'm your greatest fan? You're helping bring so many people to peak trans by exposing the complete hypocrisy and illogic nature of trans ideology. Thank you!

Smg - wow all of two pages..to prove we have a gender identity. We are groomed into having a fem/masc identity from birth. Blue for baby boys/pink for girls....babies are like sponges by one or two years of age they will already have recieved thousands of messages telling them this is how a girl is and this is how a boy is....there is very little scientific evidence to support what you are saying.... and the problem lies therein we do not fully understand why someone is trans, in some countries it is an alternative to coming out as gay due to religious bigotry, gender dysphoria probably has some neuropsychological mechanism involved but regardless of the cause a transperson is a transperson, they are not born in the wrong body as we are our bodies and our lived experience. I somehow dobt think that a dose of hormones in the womb is going to influence whether you are likely to grow up liking pink sparkly shoes

Twitter thread on the issue of sex as a spectrum

twitter.com/TriciaFrasman/status/1006161802823159809

A tweet included in the thread posted above.

guess the implication is that it forms alongside, and is part of, the sense of self.

A soul? This is a faith based position.
How can a child identify with the opposite sex without knowing what sex is?

Poppyred85 Because it's conceivable that a man can think he feels like a woman because there are innate differences. It is inconceivable to feel like a different race because race is not about feelings. Doesn't mean those men are actually women, or that they even know what they're talking about (they're men after all), but it does negate the comparison with so-called transracialism.

It is inconceivable to feel like a different race because race is not about feelings

So you’re saying womanhood is about feelings?

I’d also disagree - I think there are a huge number of emotions tied up in race, especially if you’ve grown up with people who have a strong racial identity where you feel you have none.

I agree with deathgrip also that people just don't believe women suffer the same discrimination that people of colour do.
Rachel was vilified for identifying as black because she had grown up with white privilege and could never know what it's really like to be black, the oppression that brings from everyday micro aggression to out and out violence and racism. You can't identify out of privilege into the oppressed class.
So how can men, who have been socialised with male privilege ever know the oppression women suffer from micro aggressions to rape violence and murder?
And that's before you get onto to the physical advantage men have over women in terms of size and strength.
I would love someone to explain the difference between Trans race and transgender.

Likeslots, TIF are barely causing a ripple among men. TIM are bullying women relentlessly, with threats and violence. That demonstrates the power difference.

Even the most diffident of transsexuals are doing a Dolezal on women. The TRAs are outright invaders. Which is why women pushing back.

What I find really interesting about this is that race (and to a lesser extent disability) really IS an arbitrary social construct without clear boundaries and objective definitions, unlike sex.

From a biological perspective, race literally doesn't even exist. It's a random set of traits we picked to draw lines between people and call THEM less human than US, when we could as easily have picked height or blood group instead of skin colour.

Disability is relative to the societal context. I am not considered disabled because I have glasses and I can see perfectly fine with them. 1000 years ago before they were invented my poor vision would have been a terribly limiting disability that made it damn near impossible to fully participate in life. Now it's a complete non-issue. It's likely that in the future many current disabilities will be seen as non-issues in the same way.

Sex is clearly and objectively defined, and affects us now in exactly the same way it did throughout human history (i.e. males inseminate, females gestate).

So how come the one thing it's OK to 'identify' out of is the trait that's the most objectively defined and immutable?

@Ireneony

Thanks for your experience. To there's a huge chasm between identifying WITH and identifying AS. E.g. some people identify WITH native american cultures, and while misuse of dream catchers and feather might be irksome it's not nearly so bad as identifying AS native american if you are not.

I would fully support TIMs identifying WITH womanhood and femininity instead of identifying AS women.

From a biological perspective, race literally doesn't even exist.

This is absolutely true. If you pick any two groups of humans (let’s say white Irish people and San hunters for example) then genetically there are more differences within the group than between the groups as a whole.

Race has a huge cultural component, but there’s no genetic test ‘for race.’ We are all far more similar than we are different.

But sex is immutable.

But sex is immutable.
Absolutely.

You can't have a gender identity without knowing what sex is and all these kids are doing is claiming they're the wrong SEX, which necessitates that they UNDERSTAND the fact that there are two sexes.

YY

I know prawn, I am one of the women pushing back.
This is one of the arguments I use when explaining the problem with Trans ideology and how illogical it all is. If rachel cant identify as black, which she can't because she has white privilege, how can any man with male privilege have the first clue what it's like to be a woman? Clue, they can't.
Be whatever the hell gender you want because it's all made up bollocks and there's about 70 to choose from.
We don't segregate by gender we segregate by sex.

Deathgrip you're deliberately twisting my words. I clearly said there are innate biological differences between men and women.

There are plenty of good arguments for why women need their own spaces and why people can't change sex. There's no need to resort to false equivalences. Someone asked the question of why it is different, and I offered an explanation. That's all.

So let me get this right... I was born of 2 parents, both of whom are Chinese. I am female, raised and socialised in the UK as a girl, grew up to be a woman and have borne children.

Has the world become such that I can become a man but not become a white man?

that's not fair!!

As PP have said, there are only social and cultural constructs in differentiating between races / ethnicities. There is an immutable, biological difference between the two sexes. No amount of censorship or language appropriation will, or should, change this.

This whole argument seems to boil down to a lot of men people stamping their feet and feeling they have the right to dictate what women others think. If that's not the very definition of male privilege....