Transgenderism, transracialsm and transableism

[Poppyred85]

This is something I was mulling over while on another thread so rather than derail that one I thought I’d start a new one.
If someone born male can identify as a woman, based on an internal feeling, why is the same not true for identifying as a different race or identifying as disabled? For me, I don’t see how one can be completely accepted to be true without also accepting that it is also possible to identify as a different race or identify as having a disability. Rachel Dolezal was vilified for saying/acting as though she was black when in fact she wasn’t. Why is it any different for men or women who identify as the opposite sex?

Thanks Bowlofbabelfish. I find it difficult to understand why gender dysphoria is treated so differently from conditions that are similar. Perhaps the ethical issues are constructed differently? I have some knowledge of the legal history of transition but not how it relates to medical ethics. So much to read!

I will wander through pubmed and see what I can find. Thanks again.

Rachel Dolezal's self-identification as a black woman made sense to me, and, while I can understand black people's anger at her, I think that she has been unjustly vilified.

IIUC, she had a pretty awful childhood, and her happiest memories were all associated with her black step-family and half-siblings. It makes complete sense that she should try to be there again. Also, she worked hard to fit in and be accepted, she worked in solidarity with black people, rather than be aggressive to black people and shriek "Me! Me! Me!" at every opportunity.

She is far closer to the dysphoric trans people that we have accepted for many years, than to the TRAs that are now causing so much harm to society.

"Rachel Dolezal was vilified for saying/acting as though she was black when in fact she wasn’t. Why is it any different for men or women who identify as the opposite sex?"

Because men and women are innately, deeply, biologically different, but black people and white people are not.

Because men and women are innately, deeply, biologically different, but black people and white people are not.

I’m not sure I get that (sorry.) Surely that should mean that a man identifying as a woman would be the one getting the social outrage? All of us have black African origins, it’s just a matter of how far back you go. But no woman has ever been a man. Surely the man/woman boundary is the incrossable one?

I’m confused by that too I’m afraid Whaleroad.
Professionally I have met a number of people who could fall into an umbrella categorisation (and we do love an umbrella) of transable. Interestingly they don’t fall into the BDD group as in the video above but are generally people who take on the associated accoutrements that some disabled people have to deal with, such as using a wheelchair, having to use a catheter and similar. There is a whole interesting area of discussion around sick role behaviour and the secondary gains associated with it.

Because gender identity is something that forms in everyone during infant development as part of individuation.

We know humans are dichotomised into males and females. Some people develop a cross sex identity. Part of the mechanism for that possibly involves prenatal sex steroid exposure. Human brains are sex steroid sensitive. We all have testosterone and oestrogen in our bodies. Developing embryos are exposed to male and female hormones. But we're not a mixture of black and white - unless we are. Or a mixture of abled and disabled - that doesn't make sense. There's no feasible mechanism suggested for 'cross race identity'.

Dolezal may have genuinely imprinted part of her identity on black people and may actually believe she is black. But there is no evidence base for it or associated treatment. There is for gender dysphoria.

I agree Deathgrip

I keep telling you that sex is not bimorphic

I increasingly wonder how many creative, brilliant, life-enhancing discoveries innovations and works of art have been delayed or cancelled altogether over the last couple of years because the best of our female critical thinkers (on top of whatever other shitwork and emotional labour their possession of a female body has lumbered them with) are having to spend hours of their time refuting this kind of brazen, self-evident bollocks

"Because gender identity is something that forms in everyone during infant development as part of individuation." - what does this mean? What point in infant development, and how do we know?

Evidence please Supermatchgame

SMG
What feasible mechanism is there to explain a man’s belief that he is a woman, Beyond a documented mental illness that is?

best of our female critical thinkers (on top of whatever other shitwork and emotional labour their possession of a female body has lumbered them with) are having to spend hours of their time refuting this kind of brazen, self-evident bollocks

I was thinking about this yesterday. Men just take up so much space, time, energy of women on nonsensical shit. Look at Vancouver Rape Relief, they spent TWELVE fucking years telling a man 'NO' and it almost cost them their entire rape shelter.

And STILL, there are men determined to punish them (Ogre).

Because gender identity is something that forms in everyone during infant development as part of individuation.

No it doesn't. Not once during my entire psychology education was there a SINGLE mention of gender identity. I studied Dev. Psych, Cognitive Psych, Abnormal Psych and Language Dev. You're pulling this out thin air.

Recognition of their sex happens, and that happens quite early.

Gender identity is an empty concept, meaningless rhetoric.

I do not have a gender identity. I do NOT identify with gender construct femininity. I was GROOMED into femininity.

No it doesn't. Not once during my entire psychology education was there a SINGLE mention of gender identity.

Oh really? Well there was in mine. Still have some of the text books:

Abnormal Psychology by Davison & Neale. pages 289-295

Introduction to Psychology by Atkinson, Atkinson, Smith and Hilgard pages 338-40

I don't know when you did your degree/ training mancheeze but I'm assuming it was at some point since 1950.

Here you go..

There is a programme on body dysmorphia on BBC1 right now which I've just switched onto. I'd forgotten it was on.

Will have to catch it on iplayer

supermatch
Some people develop a cross sex identity.

Describe a male identity.
Describe a female identity.

"Gibberty while sex is bimorphic, I sort of understand how your argument can be made for people with DSDs, or even gender dysphoria, but could you explain how it applies to everyone else who is under the ever-widening trans umbrella. Ludicrously, transgender even appears to apply to me, because I consider myself agender."

It shouldn't. The public understand and are willing to embrace the people who traditionally were called transsexual. The rest of the trans umbrella attach themselves to this credibility. It is distinctly unhelpful.

At which point of infant development does this gender identity form, and how do we know?

OldCrone go away and use the search function I've answered these same questions before. As you know.

Race is a social construct - there are no clear-cut boundaries between different races biologically. There are however clear biological boundaries between the sexes.

So tbh, taking Rachel Dolazel as black is far less problematic than taking a transwoman as a woman.

I find it bizarre that society is currently operating on the assumption that blackness is a clearly defined concept while sex isn't - actually the reverse of the truth.

I suppose the whole anti-science fits in with the anti-science approach over climate change etc.

"At which point of infant development does this gender identity form, and how do we know?"

For the people who eventually transition, often they identified as a girl (for a trans woman) in their earliest memories. I guess the implication is that it forms alongside, and is part of, the sense of self.

There are claims of adult onset but that could be prior suppression which eventually gives way.

When do infants develop their sense of self, and therefore this sense of gender identity? How do we know this?

SMG
Which thread? You've made a lot of posts. You could just quickly tell us all what a male identity is and how it is different from a female one.

For the people who eventually transition, often they identified as a girl (for a trans woman) in their earliest memories.

How do you 'identify as' something you are not?