Friend has very conflicting views about women, politics etc

[dragontwo]

Came away feeling really depressed. A very old and dear friend has developed some political views that feel completely at odds with my own and I feel very conflicted.

I think I'm fairly left wing and a feminist (I'm not very well read about feminism but have educated myself a little through the boards here in recent times). Friend has always been traditionally similar in views to my own but has decided to "educate" himself about his views over the last few years by reading lots of right wing and more centrist materials which has changed many of his views. I find some of his views pretty offensive. Here are some examples:

• feminism is now unnecessary as we already have equality laws - it leads to communism (bad) and is inherently "anti-male"
• murder is more important to cover in the news (and socially a more important issue) than issues that affect everyone, such as the gender pay gap and equality or discrimination
• the gender pay gap doesn't exist, women just choose to do lower paid jobs (the jordan peterson / cathy newman interview "proved" this).
• he said that "the world is ruled by beautiful women who scorn men and look down their noses at them"
• inequality in the home (and outside) doesn't exist - women choose to do more housework etc because of their biological nature. He disputed the idea of the "mental load" when I showed him the cartoon and said "we need to hear the guy's side of the story, it's probably the opposite"
• the courts frequently rule in favour of the mother rather than the father as far as child contact goes as a result of institutional sexism against men rather than "doing what's best for the child"
• people on benefits shouldn't have widescreen TVs (ok, not really relevant to women but it did annoy me!)
• the fact that murders and DV happen more within families was more of a problem than the fact that they are usually male against women

Although I don't profess to know the full arguments for and against all the above, I did find many of his viewpoints quite upsetting and at times very offensive. However I'm not so good at arguing my point but I did try my best to educate him. But I don't think he went away feeling any different! I felt many of his views were quite misogynist and this upset me.

Does anyone have any advice? How would you cope with maintaning a friend whose viewpoints made you feel so uncomfortable, especially if they were a very old friend you really care about?

What do people think about some of his points? I would welcome any feedback / thoughts etc about if he is right on anything or where he is wrong!?

Sorry if this seems a bit ineducated on my part. I'm trying to find my voice and views and educate myself but I'm not so familiar with debating the subject so would welcome more experienced feminist viewpoints.

Many thanks

I've been in the same position and don't think you can maintain this friendship, as it will now become a power struggle between your views and his.
He has deliberately and actively chosen to ignore facts in favour of a right wing narrative.

In the UK, round 10 women a week are murdered or commit suicide as the direct result of men's violence towards them. As far as he is concerned they don't exist; we are equal, we choose our destiny.

Like many pseudo left wing men, he is actually authoritarian. He wants to believe its his birthright. Its impossible to maintain an equal relationship with a person who thinks like that.

Why would you want to be friends with a man like this?

You'll have to chuck it in. Shame. Mind you, not quite as extreme as my old uni friend who'd turned into a white supremacist and now collected Nazi memorabilia.

These sorts of political views don't come around suddenly, after reading or watching a few things.
People look into things that confirm their life view. It's OK to not like someone based on their political opinions. Especially if they're awful!

thanks people. I feel very upset as we're such old friends (20 years!) and outside of his political views (that I have only very recently found out about) he is a caring, funny guy.

He's also very convinced that his views are fair, equal etc. He seems to cherrypick facts to suit his arguments - but implied I was doing the same thing (I may have been - not sure!). He did make me doubt myself a bit on some points, probably because I am not very well read or an experienced debater, so I thought I would post here to find out others feelings.

I think I am also feeling more vulnerable and confused as several other men in my life have also gone through a similar thinking shift and I find their views very intolerant and at odds with mine, all at once! Some more extreme than others but offensive to me either way.

It's a bit shocking and disorientating to be honest.

Yes, the cloak does fall off the older these men get...it is a shock but you have to realign your friendships to suit you as these scales drop from your eyes.

Weeeelllll I don’t quite agree that these sorts of views don’t come about because of outside influences....

OP have you seen this doc en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Brainwashing_of_My_Dad?

I don’t think it is all outside influences either btw. There is an inter relationship between the two things.

Well it is true that the gender pay gap doesn't exist in the way that the words pay gap suggest. Women don't get paid less, they are in lower paid work. This is actually more prevalent in countries that rank higher in gender equality measures. The problem isn't that wen are being paid less than men. The problem is that they are choosing less lucrative work in greater numbers. Going on about the alleged pay gap just covers up the real problem. Women aren't making the effort to earn the same as men. Some of this can be explained by socialisation, some of it by women being the ones who go part time to care for children etc. But it isn't going to be resolved until people actually start talking about it.

Femenism is probably less necessary than it has ever been but I would disagree that it is unexessary as discussed above women aren't performing as well as men in the economy. This has an impact on their relative power within the household etc. As long as women continue to be less powerful than their male counterparts Femenism in some form is necessary.

As for inequality in the home women choose to do more work because their husband's are hopeless not because they want to clean and cook ffs. Mental load, well clearly he has never had one so doesn't know.

Communism is bad but I don't see how Femenism causes it.

Would have to agree with him that if you are forcing the tax payer to pay for your lifestyle you should have decency to live frugally and save any spare cash for improving employment chances not entertainment.

He just seems to have a fairly standard disperse meant of views influenced by an ignorance of how family courts work and generally what life as a wan is like with a little smattering of the batshot crazy (feminism causes communism and beautiful women are apparently on the cusp of world domination). I don't really see why you care. You don't have to be polite. When he says something stupid just say so and mive on. Or better stop talking to him.

Ah you are one of those people who think pay is proportional to effort... Lots of you about, not many of you on this board...

Oh and poverty is a choice apparently too...

I wouldn't have a problem with that friendship in the slightest.

I like having friends with totally opposite views to my own - it makes for interesting debates and conversations. How boring the world would be if we were all the same.

I am rather right wing politically, not at all a feminist, but still manage to maintain friendships.

I value you my friends on a lot more than their political views.

Thankfully.

"people on benefits shouldn't have widescreen TVs"

Don't ask me why I've chosen to pick on this point but somehow it tickled me.

Exactly how big a tv should people be allowed to have when they're on benefits? Are flatscreens ok or should they try to track down an old-school big box type?

What about if you already have a big fancy tv and then lose your job and are on benefits for a while? Should you trade down or is it ok then?

What kind of aspect ratio is acceptable if you're on benefits? Is it a sliding scale (eg child allowance only, you can have 16:9, but universal credit recipients must have 4:3 or risk being sanctioned).

As for the rest, I'm really sorry OP but I wouldn't waste your time. Nothing you say or do is ever going to convince him, just like I bet he hasn't been able to convince you either. It's time to cut him loose.

women choose to do more housework etc because of their biological nature.

This goes beyond “we have different views on politics.” I’m friends with plenty of people who are way across the political spectrum to me, but I’d find it very very hard to be good friends with someone spouting that kind of sexism.

I prefer to define my friends as those who have a similar moral view as mine. That's not the same as identical political views, or a desire to live in an echo chamber.

If you were to fall, would this guy help pick you up? Or would he think you were failing somehow. If you or your family were to need benefits would he judge you? If you had to fight a sex discrimination case, would he be supportive?

Just downgrade this fellow from "friend" to "someone you know".

I agree with @diddlemethis. He doesn't sound like much of a friend if he considers all woes to be self inflicted.

If murder is more important in the news than gender issues, youncouldmpointmout to him every time a woman is murdered. Two or three reminders each week of another woman being killed by a man may get the point across.

It baffles me that you cannot maintain a friendship with someone with different views.

If each of us retreated into our own little echo chambers and only heard opposing views from strangers on the internet, politics would become even more tribal and divisive than it already is.

Advise him to read The Macho Paradox (Why some men hurt women and how all men can help) by Jackson Katz.

And detach.

Him taking more right wing views wouldn't be so much of an issue to me (to a point, BNP/EDL views would be an issue). I do think it's healthy to keep friendships with a range of views and find people who keep themselves in echo chambers tend to end up being more extreme in their own sense of being right

That said, the idea that women do more housework... because... biology is more like deeply ingrained sexism and I think that would probably be the start of a friendship drifting.

I had a friend who was fairly central ans middle of the road feminist. They met a misogynist and over time started being quite condescending to anyone who believed in equalities agenda claiming it's all gone too far and men are the real victims. Every conversation came back to them laughing at different points of view. We aren't friends now.

I think we should maintain friendships with people who have different views. He is sexist, like racism call him on it or just ask him not to be sexist when you are together, agree to differ. He has the right to have old fashioned sexist views, you have the right not to listen to them.

I think it’s a good thing to have discussions with people with different views, you may both think about things from a different perspective.

You could alternatively use a method often used by posters on this board and fuck off you are thick as shit.

Should be and say

Can someone summarise the Jordan Peterson Cathy Newman interview. I don’t think I can stand to watch or read the comments. Was it a gift to the MRAs?