Friend has very conflicting views about women, politics etc

[dragontwo]

Came away feeling really depressed. A very old and dear friend has developed some political views that feel completely at odds with my own and I feel very conflicted.

I think I'm fairly left wing and a feminist (I'm not very well read about feminism but have educated myself a little through the boards here in recent times). Friend has always been traditionally similar in views to my own but has decided to "educate" himself about his views over the last few years by reading lots of right wing and more centrist materials which has changed many of his views. I find some of his views pretty offensive. Here are some examples:

• feminism is now unnecessary as we already have equality laws - it leads to communism (bad) and is inherently "anti-male"
• murder is more important to cover in the news (and socially a more important issue) than issues that affect everyone, such as the gender pay gap and equality or discrimination
• the gender pay gap doesn't exist, women just choose to do lower paid jobs (the jordan peterson / cathy newman interview "proved" this).
• he said that "the world is ruled by beautiful women who scorn men and look down their noses at them"
• inequality in the home (and outside) doesn't exist - women choose to do more housework etc because of their biological nature. He disputed the idea of the "mental load" when I showed him the cartoon and said "we need to hear the guy's side of the story, it's probably the opposite"
• the courts frequently rule in favour of the mother rather than the father as far as child contact goes as a result of institutional sexism against men rather than "doing what's best for the child"
• people on benefits shouldn't have widescreen TVs (ok, not really relevant to women but it did annoy me!)
• the fact that murders and DV happen more within families was more of a problem than the fact that they are usually male against women

Although I don't profess to know the full arguments for and against all the above, I did find many of his viewpoints quite upsetting and at times very offensive. However I'm not so good at arguing my point but I did try my best to educate him. But I don't think he went away feeling any different! I felt many of his views were quite misogynist and this upset me.

Does anyone have any advice? How would you cope with maintaning a friend whose viewpoints made you feel so uncomfortable, especially if they were a very old friend you really care about?

What do people think about some of his points? I would welcome any feedback / thoughts etc about if he is right on anything or where he is wrong!?

Sorry if this seems a bit ineducated on my part. I'm trying to find my voice and views and educate myself but I'm not so familiar with debating the subject so would welcome more experienced feminist viewpoints.

Many thanks

If each of us retreated into our own little echo chambers and only heard opposing views from strangers on the internet, politics would become even more tribal and divisive than it already is.

You don’t have to be friends with someone who has opposing views you know? Not wanting to be friends with someone because they have values you feel are incompatible with friendship isn’t the same as never speaking to anyone who disagrees with you.

People have different ideas about what ‘friend’ means for a start. Some people call 100s of people friends when others would see them as acquaintances. Some people understand ‘stopping being friends’ as ‘never see them again’ others think of it as ‘changing how I see this person’....

I think the people in my life like this are family, so a compromise needs to be found.

Offred you make a good point about the fact that this is a friendship. Sexists ultimately don't have a high opinion of women, is that the basis for a friendship?

None of my friends are misogynists thank goodness, but some (more family type friends really) have shared some quite racist views with me. Where discussion hasn't helped I have just stated that I find their views unpleasant and offensive and don't want to hear them. We've either ceased to be friends or they have accepted our difference in opinions and ceased to talk about anything relating to that topic. Difficult to maintain friendship when they are basically telling you they think little of you and people like you.

offred
But I suppose different people draw their circle of compatability quite small and think their worldview is right so anything outside the fringes of that must be a sign of having incompatible values

Some of us have broader circles. E.g.My lines are sexism, racism, disablism, homophobia, religious intolerance. That tells me about them as a person.
Political views can shift and change.

E.g. One of my friends and I have staunchly different views on the welfare state and Brexit now. I could say 'you believe in shrinking the welfare state and are pro brexit so you must be a hideous racists who hates poor people' so we can't be friends. Or I can say we have different views, they are their own person and I'm not threatened by someone having different views.

@DustyMaiden the other perspective being seeing yourself as a second class citizen biologically suited to cleaning?

Assassinated beauty. Not sure what you mean by that?

I wouldn't try to 'educate' a friend. I would stop talking in generalities and talk about your lives. Plenty of men have a horrible time due to patriarchy and the demands of toxic masculinity. Just be his friend, enjoy his company - nothing is more radical than genuine male/female friendship. If he starts banging on about the pay gap, ask him about how he made choices in his own career. If you start dreading seeing him, tell him so (gently).

That’s not what I’m saying Maisy. I’m saying people interpret the word friend differently. For some it means ‘only those closest to me out of all my acquaintances’ and for some it means ‘everyone I know’.

It’s rarely anything to do with ‘being right’ but about what ‘being a friend’ means to you.

People might be able to create an echo chamber online but it’s pretty difficult to do that IRL.

If friend means only the closest relationships that says nothing about your ability to tolerate disagreement or whether you are exposed to different views. It’s entirely possible to be a person who values disagreement and only considers people to be friends if they share values or a person who cannot cope with disagreement and has a large number of people they consider friends who have very different values and views.

I think those posters who say that they couldn't be friends with someone with a different point of view are just retreating into an echo chamber and then seem shocked when something like Brexit or Trump comes about!

If you can have fun with him (not all topics of conversation will be affected by this surely?), then I'd say keep being friends and have some good discussions with him from time to time! You'll never be able to articulate your own views properly if you haven't had to defend them against someone who disagrees anyway.

No comments on the actual views, but they are very different from mine.

Which means, I wouldn't enter a relationship with him.
I wouldn't put him aside unless he started being aggressive or defending rape, for example.
I would keep talking, but I'd ask him questions to challenge his beliefs rather than try to indoctrinate him.
For example, what is the evidence for women being biologically attracted to housework?

If you can have fun with him (not all topics of conversation will be affected by this surely?)

Case in point. Some people would not consider this type of relationship a friendship. Those people would say that someone you had superficial fun with was not a friend but an acquaintance.

I don’t think there is a right way or a wrong way BTW. Just people are different and the insults are uncalled for.

It baffles me that you cannot maintain a friendship with someone with different views.

It would seem in mumsnet land quite a few people prefer living in an echo chamber.

"I just found out that my DH voted Conservative in the recent local elections, AIBU to consider ending the relationship?"

"Ugh, ditch him, the Tories are evil"

etc etc

🙄

Your OP exactly describes my brother. I try to ignore him but every now and again I bite and lose my cool.

Can someone summarise the Jordan Peterson Cathy Newman interview. I don’t think I can stand to watch or read the comments. Was it a gift to the MRAs?

The MRA's certainly hitched their wagon to it and Newman unsurprisingly received the usual vile online abuse, something Peterson has repeatedly condemned.

That however cannot distract from the fact that it was a car crash interview by Newman who perfectly demonstrated the straw man fallacy by repeated use of the phrase “so what you’re saying is..” when he was "saying" nothing of the sort. She was poorly briefed on her subject and went for the jugular and failed miserably. Newman was probably let down by one of her researchers as her interview notes seemed to contain the views of Peterson’s most rabid critics, rather than those of the man himself which led to him rather easily batting her questions away in a calm manner.

I quite like Newman as a news anchor but that interview did her no favours at all.

@dragontwo "I felt many of his views were quite misogynist"

Misogynist is overused to the point where it's now fairly meaningless and trival - just like "nazi" "fascist" "transphobic" etc

" the gender pay gap doesn't exist, women just choose to do lower paid jobs (the jordan peterson / cathy newman interview "proved" this). "

If he believes the gender pay gap doesn't exist then he's wrong.

If he believes the gender pay gap exists but is caused by reasons other than "sexism" or "patriarchy" then that's a perfectly valid opinion.

You seem to disagree with eachother over concepts that are not exactly tangible/definitive.

You should have a little more understanding. There's a virtually identical thread elsewhere on the front page - if you immerse yourself or study a subject, in this case feminism, you can't expect laypeople to share the same opinions or be familiar with the core arguments.

Moaning that they don't agree with you and getting depressed just makes you sound intolerant

It would seem in mumsnet land quite a few people prefer living in an echo chamber.

I am well known as being happy to have a barney with friends and there be no hurt feelings - but why choose to spend time with people who quite literally sexist pricks? Life is too short.

@IfyouseeRitaMoreno "Can someone summarise the Jordan Peterson Cathy Newman interview. I don’t think I can stand to watch or read the comments. Was it a gift to the MRAs?"

Why don't you watch it, it went viral for a reason.

There is nothing wrong with watching people who can recite backwards all the opposing evidence against your world view.

Being able to "iron man" their arguments in response, as opposed to the aforementioned "straw men" that Newman attempted, can only improve/solidify your own position

"Echo chamber" seems to be the new insult to immediately dismiss someone else's point of view. It's quite dull.

Not wanting to spend time with someone who thinks you're a lesser being is completely acceptable if it is continually unpleasant.

I couldn't be friends with someone who enjoyed playing goad the feminist whenever we met. I know people like that it's no fun at all.

Also it's not true that no women are paid less than men for the same or comparable work; just because it's illegal doesn't mean it doesn't happen. In many (most) cases it's hard to know or show though.

"Echo chamber" seems to be the new insult to immediately dismiss someone else's point of view. It's quite dull.

It can at times be a quite apt description of the MN feminist boards to be honest. I have lost count of the times a women who identifies herself as feminist has entered a discussion on here only to be patronisingly told to 'go and educate yourself' or just be torn to shreds because she does not slavishly follow the accepted feminist orthodoxy of the more established members here. It's no surprise that many folk find it a bit intimidating to come on here.

And yet you're here to give the "alternative" position, which makes the idea of an echo chamber less convincing. And this response to women you describe happens on most threads? Enough to chase away everyone with a different opinion? And of course, MN feminist chat is the only place that people here ever look at and post on, no doubt.

Why don't you watch it, it went viral for a reason.

yeah, because JP is good at arguing and CN wasn’t up to his debating skills.

The truth is it’s hard to present feminism to anti-feminist people. It’s so personal for us because sexism has affected us.

Being better at arguing at a subject that doesn’t affect you as much doesn’t mean you’re right.