Can we be honest about the need for affirmation?

[FortunateCookie]

I posted some of this on the misgendering thread but it was lost in amongst everything.

I asked on that thread whether refusing to affirm someone’s gender identity was a big deal or not, and many people thought it was, and that it could lead to mental health problems and possibly suicide.

If non- affirmation is so damaging then it also follows that positive affirmation would be extremely rewarding and fulfilling.

It seems obvious that this could lead to serious conflicts of interests. For example, in the case of the woman who asked for a female nurse to carry out her smear test, and was faced with a trans nurse.

Here, when the patients needs should be paramount, she instead becomes either a cause of huge distress, or a vehicle to experience the reward of validation. Either way, it is difficult to see how her needs could be centred against the pull of such a powerful motivation. Do eg hospitals, rape crisis centres recognise this dynamic?

Either it is a big deal that a trans person has their identity affirmed, in which case it should also be recognised that this can cause conflicts of interest in situations where affirmation or not is a factor (ie performing smear tests, working in a women’s refuge)

Or it’s not that big of a deal if a trans person has their identity affirmed and therefore they won’t be offended when a patient asks for a female nurse to carry out their smear.

Which is it?

Every time I read Supermatchgame or one of the other TRAs trying to eradicate our rights to consent as they have done on this thread, they demonstrate just how dangerous some people in this movement are to women and children.

We still have no idea that sex either Supermatch or Gibb are because both of them use the term sex in rather baroque ways, but I think given that possibility that either or both may be female it brings up the fact that it's not just trans people themselves who're the problem, the group of female supporters are in many cases just as much of a threat to women and children as a group, in the same way that say Ann Coulter in the US is no friend to women as a group. There will always be women happy to throw other women under the bus, and in the TRA case those women are helping to escalate the situation by trying to position themselves as proof that women as a group are totally fine with any and all changes demanded.

What sex, rather.

Where I am smears etc are usually performed by a gyno rather than a nurse. I don't want to see a gyno who's a regular gender conforming man either, and I know I'm not the only one otherwise women requesting a woman to do those procedures wouldn't be an issue. Some women are find with males performing those procedures for them, but in general I think we'd be better off setting the default at "in general most women may prefer a female practitioner" for intimate procedures.

What should we do about the trans HCP who act unacceptably?

The same thing that is done with ALL people who act unacceptably.. follow disciplinary action and strip this them of their right/ability to practice where necessary.. that’s not too much of a reach is it?

I am bowing out of this thread now.

A trans woman working as a nurse is not coercive or sinister or creepy or anything else of that nature that has been said over the pages of this thread. They are simply pursuing a career in something thar they are passionate about - helping people.

Validation is the reason many transgender identified males go into women's services. They say it themselves and you claiming it is not true is pointless.

NatLuc

Can we please stop insinuating that all trans people have a ‘disturbed’ relationship with what other people’s bodies?!

I think you have a point here NatLuc, and it was not my intention to insinuate that all trans women have an issue with female bodies.

However, what I have tried to do many times on this thread, is to take the patients point of view because they are paramount in this situation.

And there are women who hold this view (though perhaps not about all transwomen) and so like it or not it is a genuine concern.

And we both know that there are indeed transwomen who do fit this description, so I’m not going to tell these women that it’s not a legitimate or proportionate concern either.

And if you want to say that this is a transphobic point of view I would ask you to find me another group of people who have form for fetishising women’s bodies (the only other one is men) and ask if it is phobic to feel concern about this too.

A trans woman working as a nurse is not coercive or sinister or creepy or anything else of that nature that has been said over the pages of this thread.

Well that depends on the individual.

But if the transwomans intentions are not sinister or for affirmation, then they should appreciate that them doing intermate exams put woman in a difficult position and many woman will not want a biological male doing intermate exams - and so the transwomen would be happy to not provide intermate care to woman.

However, what I have tried to do many times on this thread, is to take the patients point of view because they are paramount in this situation.

Precisely. The purpose of healthcare is to tend to the wellbeing of the patient, not the HCP. The moment you lose sight of that you're a bit shit as a HCP, whatever your reason for doing so.

A trans woman working as a nurse is not coercive or sinister or creepy or anything else of that nature that has been said over the pages of this thread.

I have not said this.

i care about the patient. I am not concerned with individual HCPs. I am concerned that there is a fundamental conflict of interest for a transwoman HCP to treat a patient who asks for a female HCP because the patient will perceive that the transwoman is seeking validation.

The feelings, motivations and professionalism of the HCP are irrelevant in this dynamic.

Let's not forget that 'transperson' is a polite euphemism for a person with a psychological disorder so severe that they feel they must pretend they are the opposite sex and try to get the rest of the world to play along with their charade or they feel suicidal.

It is not healthy or normal and patients are quite right to feel uncomfortable with HPCs with profound psychological disorders tending to them when they are vulnerable.

I agree, Permission.

It's like that wise man said "Trans women are women. Except for relationship purposes"

A TIM can be or do anything they like, but if a relationship is proposed, could be sexual, or medical in this case, the patient has to have the right to say no. And there don't have to have an approved reason, they shouldn't have to state a reason at all.

This is one of the situations where the 'except relationship' clause kicks in.

I don't want anyone male nosing around in my bits unless we have a sexual relationship, is what it comes down to for me. Don't care how the male in question sees himself, whether or not he's sexually interested in women, how he dresses, what his star sign is...it's my genitalia and I should have the absolute right to determine who does and does not get to touch it.

Can we please stop insinuating that all trans people have a ‘disturbed’ relationship with what other people’s bodies?!

I don't give a flying fuck what relationship they have with other people's bodies. I do give a flying fuck that any male person, trans or otherwise, would even think there was any issue with the default setting for intimate procedures - beauty salons and the like as well as healthcare - being same sex for women. Any person involved in such employment that situates their identity over the needs of their service users is entirely unsuitable for the position. It shouldn't even occur to a male-born trans person to want this type of employment. If it does - that's a big, huge, massive problem with that trans person.

The absolute narcissism of thinking another person's boundaries are worth less than your inner identity is a massive red flag straight from every single MVAWG and domestic abuse checklist ever written.

Don't know about theoretical stuff, but if any man or man-who-thinks-he-is-a-woman appeared and introduced themselves to me as the nurse to perform my smear, I would run screaming out of the room.

I would feel extremely scared and wonder wtf they thought they were doing.

That is women at their most vulnerable - how insensitive or deliberately rapey would a man or man-who-thinks-he-is-a-woman have to be to think that this was a good scenario for him to try out pretending to be a woman?

"A trans woman working as a nurse is not coercive or sinister or creepy or anything else of that nature that has been said over the pages of this thread. They are simply pursuing a career in something thar they are passionate about - helping people."

Well, if helping people is what they want to do they could start by listening to the people they claim to be so interested in helping.

Numerous women are saying they don't want to be 'helped' when it comes to matters gynaecological by transwomen.

End of. No-one else's feelings or views matter. Not the postman's, not the man who works at the corner shop and not the transwoman's either.

Again, the default should be a female HCP being offered. If a situation is created where the women the procedure is being done on has to actively reject a trans HCP then how is that a good situation for anyone involved?

"It is a disorder to identify as transgender.
It is listed as a mental disorder."

It is not listed as a mental disorder.

If a situation is created where the women the procedure is being done on has to actively reject a trans HCP then how is that a good situation for anyone involved?

Exactly. On the Duluth wheel - I know I keep mentioning it but FFS, this place is mobbed by embodiments of it - this is called coercion. It's abusive. And only abusers, potential abusers or abuse cheerleaders can't see that. So if you're reading and you can't see that - bugger off and have a word with yourself.

It is not listed as a mental disorder.

That's only because the lunatics have taken over the asylum and are telling practitoners to uphold that they are sane and the world is is crazy - or else.

It is completely wrong in the head to think your body is the wrong sex.

I'm struggling slightly with the TW HCP to be honest

Either they were an HCP before transitioning, in which case they would have been used to patients opting to see their colleagues for a smear test rather than them. Or they became an HCP who performs intimate procedures after transitioning, in which case one might well ponder their motivation for doing so, given the great array of roles available even within the medical profession that would be less likely to bring these issues into play

I've had gynae exams and treatment from male HCPs and female HCPs. Nowadays I will only accept treatment from female HCPs except in a genuine, immediate emergency.

The first time that I exercised my right to choose a female doctor, I got my hospital letter through and rang up to confirm that Dr Smith (my assigned consultant) was female. Yes, I was told, Dr Smith is female. Sigh of relief - that was easy.

But when I got to the appointment, Dr Smith was indeed female but she had with her Dr Jones, who was a junior doctor and was hoping to practice on me "if that was OK". I said it wasn't, and the lovely Dr Jones simply said, "that's fine", stood up and left the room. (Dr Smith was a bit of a grumpy cow bag and went on about doctors needing to practice their skills under supervision, but I still preferred grumpy Dr Smith poking around my cervix than lovely Dr Jones, because, y'know, female.)

"It is a disorder to identify as transgender.
It is listed as a mental disorder."

It is not listed as a mental disorder.

Caught me! The current euphemism is gender dysphoria but it is right there in the mental disorders book
www.researchgate.net/publication/296700032_The_DSM-5_Diagnostic_Criteria_for_Gender_Dysphoria

Exactly. On the Duluth wheel - I know I keep mentioning it but FFS, this place is mobbed by embodiments of it - this is called coercion. It's abusive. And only abusers, potential abusers or abuse cheerleaders can't see that. So if you're reading and you can't see that - bugger off and have a word with yourself.

And in the case of Nat's hypothetical transwomen HCP who has no ill intentions at all and just wants to provide healthcare that scenario will either result on them being actively rejected in a way that they can't avoid being aware of, which presumably won't be fun for them, or them performing a procedure on a patient who doesn't want them doing it and will be miserable the whole time, but who didn't feel able to refuse. Again, if one's intentions are to help patients, how would that be a good outcome?

It is not listed as a mental disorder.

"Transgender" is a broad umbrella term, encompassing both the mental disorders "gender dysphoria" and "transvestic fetishism". Which as we have noted are both in the DSM-5.

The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders
just happened to mention it incidentally in passing because reasons but it is totes not a mental disorder even though it is in the manual of mental disorders.