White Men are the Most Discriminated Against Demographic

[BoodeBeep]

My boyfriend has just said this to me. His reasons were women and ethnic minorities get schemes/help/AWS etc. I asked why exactly he thinks they have them, who they were trying to equal women up to etc. He said we should have a meritocracy and I agreed but explained we haven't ever ever had that and not all men are there on merit. I asked if he thought the reason there wasn't 50/50 represention was because women just weren't up to it and he said of course not but what other explanation is there?

I left it because there is just no getting through the complete arrogant certainty that he is right despite having done zero reading around the subject, having zero experience of being a woman/ethnic minority and seeing and hearing the experiences me and many other women have.

It's so frustrating. He's generally great but blind on this issue and obviously unwilling to think about it in any depth beyond how it may affect him should he fall victim to the discrimination of an all women shortlist.

Do men ever really get it?

"There needs to be a law for the point at which we arrive at the allegation of misandry."

Probably around the same time misogynist starts getting thrown around willy nilly

Eye roll at the tiresome derails

Just wanted to agree with @whiteonred

“'It's just frustrating he won't listen when I tell him it exists and how.'

Sorry, but if he won't listen to you then, at a fundamental level he doesn't respect you.”

This is exactly what I wanted to say. He is dismissing you even though you are a woman who has lived experience of disadvantage and you’ve researched the topic.

I would tell him to fuck off and do his own research.

The Fawcett Society should have some good research-backed facts and figures. But I’m not finding the link for him and you shouldn’t either.

@UpstartCrow: There needs to be a law for the point at which we arrive at the allegation of misandry.

@fmsfms: Probably around the same time misogynist starts getting thrown around willy nilly

I would say that "misandry" can be brought out when the collected testimony of thousands of men is dismissed as unreliable on the basis that the testimony hasn't been corroborated, even though it's impossible to corroborate due the nature of the crimes and misdeeds being testified about which is what you've been doing to women when dismissing Everyday Sexism.

It's a pretty high bar and certainly far from "willy nilly".

His arguments have zero merit. None of them are accurate.

You asked about our partners and whether they're like your man?

I don't have a partner, nor need one. I'm a one woman army.

Men are like permanent infants who can't get through life without help. I wasn't born to be a man's help mate. Not only are they infants but they're incredibly illogical and no good in bed.

whistles

'These boots were made for walkin', and that's just what I'll do...'

Oh my word, my grammar today.

impossible to corroborate due to the nature of the crimes and misdeeds being testified about , which

The Industrial Revolution was also built on the backs of women's cheap labour (see Das Kapital), chattel slavery in the colonies, and exploitation of indigenous peoples in other parts of the empire (e.g. India). The coal owners and other owners of the means of production were happy to exploit the lower classes and the state backed them by sending soldiers to subjugate the indigenous people overseas and using soldiers to subjugate the working class here (e.g. Peterloo Massacre).

Slave women in the colonies were systematically raped by slave owners, directly by the white men or indirectly by male slaves under the threat of beatings, in order to maintain the supplies of slave children. The raw materials produced by these slaves (cotton, sugar) were brought over here to profit white men.

Modern racism owes its existance to the Industrial Revolution and Empire belief that people of colour weren't really people, and anything that challenges that racism is good, even if it means that I (white woman) lose out through lose of my undeserved privilege.

So yes, you are losing privilege that you should never have had. Get used to it.

That last post of mine in reply to @A4710rider.

It was Western Civilisation that actually brought that millennia of slavery to and end.

The thousands of people trafficked each year in the UK alone would disprove that assertion. Banning it didn't stop it, it just made it illegal.

Great post HaXXor
You have more patience than me

a meritocracy would be ideal

BWAHAHAHAHAH. I really want you to see the image of my face right now, huge smirk!

There's no such thing as a meritocracy in white male precious feelings land. Who stole all the valuable resources from 3rd world countries, like diamonds and conflict minerals that go in computers? White guys.

Who started the first and second world war, and who will start the third? White guys.

Who cheats, lies and steals in white collar crime, moreso than any dark skinned working class man who deals drugs in the hood to survive? WHITE GUYS.

When white guys talk about individualism and 'equality of opportunity v outcome and the MERITOCRACY, I lol my ass off since NONE of them practice the meritocracy and are the biggest liars, thieves and cheaters in history.

White guy: 'Bbbbut, TEH MERITOCRACY!!!!!!!!!'
Me 'PULL THE OTHER LEG MANCHILD!;

Seriously, gimme a break. I have no patience for these MRA's/ alt right morons. I hope they create a white male ethnostate on some fucking island somewhere to leave the rest of us in peace so we can fix the damn planet and the massive inequalities that face us.

@haxxor "Modern racism owes its existance to the Industrial Revolution and Empire belief that people of colour weren't really people, and anything that challenges that racism is good, even if it means that I (white woman) lose out through lose of my undeserved privilege.

So yes, you are losing privilege that you should never have had"

That is sounding very similar to Munroe Bergdorf style all white people are unconsciously racist 'white privilege' theory. Which is itself massively racist.

All white people do benefit from white privilege. I don't agree with MB that all white people are therefore racist, that's a different claim.

@mancheeze "Who cheats, lies and steals in white collar crime, moreso than any dark skinned working class man who deals drugs in the hood to survive? WHITE GUYS."

I was going to write a longer reply but decided not to - all that needs to be said is some of you really hate white men. This thread is starting to drip with racism

@assassinatedbeauty "All white people do benefit from white privilege. I don't agree with MB that all white people are therefore racist, that's a different claim."

Well the all white people benefitting from slavery/colonialism is the first central strand of white privilege theory. The argument goes that a) they don't know they benefit b) fragility is when you tell them they benefit and are racist by inheriting that privilege and they deny it

It then goes onto argue that unless you're actively challenging those racist structures then you are guilty of continuing white supremacy/privilege.

It's basically an Orwellian Kafka-esque inescapable guilt circle

How is it plausible to deny that white people have benefitted and continue to benefit from slavery/colonialism?

@assassinatedbeauty

Are you familiar with the full white fragility theory?

I'm happy to break it down and point out why the theory IS racist, but all that needs to be cited at this point is this quote:

"Racism comes out of our pores as white people. It's the way that we are."

There is very little that exceeds the amount of racism in that quote

This thread is starting to drip with racism

Now pull the 'other' leg.

A person can respectfully disagree with another person.

Disagreement about an issue is not a personal slight.

@mancheeze

"When white guys talk about individualism and 'equality of opportunity v outcome and the MERITOCRACY, I lol my ass off since NONE of them practice the meritocracy and are the biggest liars, thieves and cheaters in history."

Are you Munroe Bergdorf in disguise?

Anybody that thinks that territorial expansion, conquest, subjugation and exploitation of adjacent cultures is exclusive to white people is as ignorant of history as Bergdorf.

The difference is that white Western European nations had a technology advantage that extended their reach and control further than previous dominant cultures.

There is nothing intrinsic about white people that fuels/fueled the desire to invade other lands, suggesting there is, is racist

All the great historical empires/civilisations would have done exactly the same as the colonial powers if the same level of technology was available to them

Who on earth are you quoting and what's the relevance. I'm not an academic and I'm not an expert in theories around racism. I'm just a person chatting online.

Maybe you could answer my previous question. How is it plausible to deny that white people have benefitted and continue to benefit from slavery/colonialism?

@AssassinatedBeauty "Who on earth are you quoting and what's the relevance"

Robin DiAngelo - the academic behind "white fragility" theory stateofopportunity.michiganradio.org/post/why-all-white-people-are-racist-cant-handle-being-called-racist-theory-white-fragility

The theory goes:

Western Powers got rich from slavery/colonialism. That wealth trickles down/continues today to the benefit of white people above all other races.

Racism isn't something you do, it's something you are. And by inheriting that wealth/society then white people continue the exploitation of the slavery/colonial era. Therefore white people are automatically racist - Western society is racist by default.

White fragility is the denials of white people when you tell them "hey guess what, did you know that you are racist and only white people can be racist?"

The denial is proof of their guilt - this is the Kafkatrap element. Munroe Bergdorf frequently uses the denials of white people to say "I told you so"

The only way for white people to not be racist is to be an "ally" and to challenge/dismantle the legacy structures of racism that continue today. Of course, that's a rather vague and undefined idea = thus all the power to assign the racial guilt of white people lies in the hand of the accuser - like I said it's utterly Orwellian and Kafka-esque

"How is it plausible to deny that white people have benefitted and continue to benefit from slavery/colonialism?"

I don't think I ever denied that white people benefitted from slavery/colonialism, that would be absurd. Yes the wealth of various Western Empires allowed those societies to flourish.

But the idea that the wealth of those empires continues today to the advantage of all white people over all minorities is absurd. It's just nonsense identity politics white privilege bullshit

Liverpool was one of the richest parts in the UK at the peak of the slave trade and declined to such an extent that the Tories seriously considered leaving it to a "managed decline" in the 80s.

Women currently in the jobs market are not up to it.

But neither of plenty of men. There are some really quite shit men in IT, and in IT management (and quite probably other sectors,) but they get away with being rather rubbish in a way women just can't.

@fmsfms But the idea that the wealth of those empires continues today to the advantage of all white people over all minorities is absurd. It's just nonsense identity politics white privilege bullshit

Actually, we do still gain advantage from the Empire legacy. The standard of living here compared to large chunks of Africa demonstrates it. That every home in the UK has a flushing toilet whilst people in former colonies still piss and crap in fields. The strength of the pound versus most former colonial countries currencies is a direct consequence of the Empire. That imported goods from India are so cheap is a direct consequence of the Empire. Schemes like Fair Trade for coffee exist is to alleviate the huge power and wealth imbalances caused by the Empire.

Liverpool was one of the richest parts in the UK at the peak of the slave trade and declined to such an extent that the Tories seriously considered leaving it to a "managed decline" in the 80s.

That was Tory retaliation for the Toxteth riots. Political decisions by governments with an axe to grind have nothing to do with actual conditions on the ground.

Liverpool still has its fine buildings, railway infrastructure, art galleries etc, all funded by the slave trade.

@fmsfms The only way for white people to not be racist is to be an "ally" and to challenge/dismantle the legacy structures of racism that continue today.

Seems legit to me. Start by making sure that all your tea, coffee, and chocolate is fair trade. Free markets keeping prices as low as possible is one of the ways in which colonial power imbalance is replicated, because when the buyer has so much more power than the seller, the seller can't resist exploitation.

What DiAngelo and Bergdorf are explaining badly are structural racism and unconscious bias. An individual might not knowingly engage in racial prejudice, but they almost certainly unconsciously have some. (You can test your own biases thanks to Harvard University). When you add these tiny biases together, the cumulative effect on a person of colour is enormous, especially when those biases affect large organisations (banks, police forces) with power over people. An excellent book about this is "Why I'm No Longer Talking To White People About Race" by Reni Eddo-lodge.