"Reforming the GRA will not change anything because the EA will remain the same"

[PikesPeaked]

^^ The Govt's response to the petition:

We are clear that we have no intention of amending the Equality Act 2010, the legislation that allows for single sex spaces. Any GRA reform will not change the protected characteristics in the Equality Act nor the exceptions under the Equality Act that allow provision for single and separate sex spaces.
The Government does not intend to change the safeguarding processes that are currently used in refuges and healthcare services. Providers of women-only services can continue to provide services in a different way, or even not provide services to trans individuals, provided it is objectively justified on a case-by-case basis. The same can be said about toilets, changing rooms or single sex activities. Providers may exclude trans people from facilities of the sex they identify with, provided it is a proportionate means of meeting a legitimate aim.

It's all totally irrelevant. Yes, the EA currently allows exclusion of trans people from sex-discriminated provision, but providers aren't doing so.

I don't believe it's because they are misguided by the information given to them by TRA organisations. M&S, TopShop etc all have legal departments to check the legalities of policy changes.

I suspect that they kowtow to the TRAs because it's probably more hassle to go through all the justification of exclusion than to just bow to the TRA pressure. Not to mention the hassle of dealing with the negative publicity of "Bigot!"

But you can’t check that someone is trans. When someone uses their GRC to get a new birth certificate the old one is forever hidden. So the ability to exclude natal men who are legal women from women’s spaces is impossible. The number of men who have a GRC and are legally women is teeny at the moment, but once a GRC and new birth certificate is available with no checks or balances then what happens?

The EA is barely worth the paper it’s written on.

Totally agree Sweary. The pretence that the GRA doesn't affect anything or anyone other than a few trans people and therefore should only be able to be discussed by trans advocates is a disingenuous sleight of hand.

We need to challenge the government on how it is possible to prevent TW with GRCs entering women only spaces

According to the EA a transwoman can be excluded from female provision. Their certification is irrelevant.

A person you identify as male approaches your provision, you are entitled to say "Sorry, sir, females only." If that person replies "But I am a woman", you are entitled to say "You are a transwoman. This service is only for women." You may then need to prove that admitting the tramswoman would be detrimental to the female service-users.

The transwoman doesn't have to prove their 'woman-ness', it wouldn't make any difference if they did. According to the EA. In theory the EA gives women the protections we are trying to safeguard. In practice, however...

We need to challenge the government on how it is possible to prevent TW with GRCs entering women only spaces

Absolutely.

But you can’t prove that person is trans. Their birth certificate will be indistinguishable from that of someone born female and you can’t ask to see a GRC. If they don’t volunteer the information there is no way you can ascertain it.

The provision to exclude transwomen from women’s spaces is unenforceable

'A person you identify as male approaches your provision, you are entitled to say "Sorry, sir, females only." If that person replies "But I am a woman", you are entitled to say "You are a transwoman. This service is only for women." You may then need to prove that admitting the tramswoman would be detrimental to the female service-users.'

No. That is unlawful direct discrimination on grounds of perception of gender reassignment.
As direct discrimination it cannot be justified and the legal claim must succeed.

And for the record, that protection also extends to any butch woman rejected because they were perceived to be a transwoman.

That's important. If you succeed in bringing in the policy you want stores etc will overcome sate and deny access to women who have not been through gender reassignment. We all know that and we shouldn't pretend otherwise.

Over-compensate*

Yeah but we are so over that flibgib. You have illustrated why.

It's very smple.

The Equalities Act protects women only spaces and keeps them for women.

Transwomen are women (born women, natal women, real women and female, obviously) and therefore the Equalities Act protects them as women and allows them into women's spaces.

Nothing to complain about, move along there ....

Providers may exclude trans people from facilities of the sex they identify with

So how do providers go about doing this?

There are very few butch women who actually genuinely appear to be male. Humans are very good at discerning sex. We have to be for our own safety.

There are very few butch women who actually genuinely appear to be male. Humans are very good at discerning sex. We have to be for our own safety.

These lesbians clearly look like women to me, but they were barred from the women's toilets.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2910003/Lesbian-couple-kicked-ladies-toilets-cinema-security-guard-thought-MEN.html

Apologies for the link to the DM - can't easily find it in other online papers (although they did cover it at the time)

But you can’t prove that person is trans. Their birth certificate will be indistinguishable from that of someone born female and you can’t ask to see a GRC. If they don’t volunteer the information there is no way you can ascertain it.

The provision to exclude transwomen from women’s spaces is unenforceable

There is no law to stop you from asking for a GRC. You could ask for a GRC and then exclude a woman for being trans.

However, the EA is designed to prevent this kind of discrimination. If there are no practical difficulties in a transwomen using facilities and a service provider chooses to exclude her then it will not fit into the EA exceptions.

However, if practical difficulties arise from a woman being trans, then she can be excluded provided it is for a legitimate aim and is proportionate. In this case the need to see a GRC is irrelevant.

SwearyG - the EA exceptions deal with practical issues involving trans people using sex segregated spaces - they don't allow blanket discrimination against trans people - which is clearly the aim of the ManFriday campaign.

If its a women only space or service then its not discrimination. They exist for a reason.

Again the ministry of truth has spoken "trans women are women" please people stop using your eyes and accept 2 + 2= 5.

The new newspeak.

Regarding disclosure of a GRC, section 22 of the GRA makes it a criminal offence with a fine of up to £5000.

It is a crappy bit of the legislation if I'm honest and it shouldn't be there, but it is what it is. I think, at worst it should be a civil matter.

You cannae ask for a GRC.

For you SarahAr.

No. That is unlawful direct discrimination on grounds of perception of gender reassignment.
As direct discrimination it cannot be justified and the legal claim must succeed.

You TRAs need to get your story straight. Because plenty of them have told us that we can do this so what are we worried about?

Regarding disclosure of a GRC, section 22 of the GRA makes it a criminal offence with a fine of up to £5000.

Isn't that section aimed at doctors, teachers, police officers etc? You have to be able to ask, and we need to ensure this question comes up in any consultation as Venice said.

One person didn't like the song Picasso. Boooo.

Really? sorry I was off on a Thin Lizzy blast.

SarahAr - did I mention changing rooms here? If you actually pay attention you might have noticed that. MF seeks to have current exemptions re single sex spaces in the EA applied where lobby groups have encouraged them to be removed. Where we want separate sex spaces - and most trans identified men would be excludable because they are still legally male.

What I mention here is that the provision to exclude male women (trans identified men) from spaces exists in the EA but it is unenforceable because, as Bronners says the GRA has a section that states you can’t ask to see a GRC, which is what would show someone to be trans.

There are a few exemptions to disclosure, but these are poorly written. The example given to me at training recently by an equality barrister related to a medical secretary.

A doctor is exempted if the disclosure is considered medically relevant. Ie if my problem is lower abdominal pain, my GRS is clearly relevant and the doctor can go against my wishes and disclose it.

The exemption doesn't extend to his support staff, including medical secretaries, so if she writes up a letter and sends it off, she breaks the law and theoretically could get a criminal record for it.

As, I say, totally think that this should not be in the GRA.