"Reforming the GRA will not change anything because the EA will remain the same"

[PikesPeaked]

^^ The Govt's response to the petition:

We are clear that we have no intention of amending the Equality Act 2010, the legislation that allows for single sex spaces. Any GRA reform will not change the protected characteristics in the Equality Act nor the exceptions under the Equality Act that allow provision for single and separate sex spaces.
The Government does not intend to change the safeguarding processes that are currently used in refuges and healthcare services. Providers of women-only services can continue to provide services in a different way, or even not provide services to trans individuals, provided it is objectively justified on a case-by-case basis. The same can be said about toilets, changing rooms or single sex activities. Providers may exclude trans people from facilities of the sex they identify with, provided it is a proportionate means of meeting a legitimate aim.

It's all totally irrelevant. Yes, the EA currently allows exclusion of trans people from sex-discriminated provision, but providers aren't doing so.

I don't believe it's because they are misguided by the information given to them by TRA organisations. M&S, TopShop etc all have legal departments to check the legalities of policy changes.

I suspect that they kowtow to the TRAs because it's probably more hassle to go through all the justification of exclusion than to just bow to the TRA pressure. Not to mention the hassle of dealing with the negative publicity of "Bigot!"

twitter.com/EqualityActRev/status/1004671911174041601?s=19

They're going after the Equality Act now. Wes Streeting apparently a supporter.

On the face of it review of the EA looks like a good campaign. They want to strengthen enforceability www.equalityactreview.co.uk/

Removal of single Sex space exemptions has always been part of the plan . Know your enemy.

"The GRA2004 was introduced because in 2002 the European Court of Human Rights ruled that not allowing transsexuals to change their birth certificate was a breach of their human rights. However, when the European court made its ruling there were only thought to be 2-5000 trans in the UK and they were all expected to have genital surgery. Based on that the court ruled it would have negligible impact on society. The balance was fair.

That has changed completely. We have something like 500,000 trans in the UK and hardly any have surgery. Now the balance is unfair. Maybe there is a case for repeal - at the UK and more importantly the European level."

www.facebook.com/fairplayforwomen/photos/a.203323566744461.1073741828.203074990102652/404824469927702/?type=3&theater

Maybe there is a case for repeal - at the UK and more importantly the European level.

There should be.

A doctor is exempted if the disclosure is considered medically relevant. Ie if my problem is lower abdominal pain, my GRS is clearly relevant and the doctor can go against my wishes and disclose it.

A doctor on here said she had GMC training that this wasn't the case. People are clearly interpreting it in different ways. I have read this legislation and didn't think this was spelled out? Very happy to be proved wrong!

On the face of it review of the EA looks like a good campaign. They want to strengthen enforceability

The thing is, EqA does need review. Basically, it was rushed through by a New Labour government that knew it was likely to lose the next election and wanted to get something on the statute before it did. The result is a well-meaning but often toothless Act with more holes than a Mumnset modded Swiss cheese thread.

We feminists should want EqA strengthened. But we also need to be sure that any review is not hijacked by transactivists and has women's rights as a priority.

when the European court made its ruling there were only thought to be 2-5000 trans in the UK and they were all expected to have genital surgery.

This is true...my partner has a transsexual friend with gender dysphoria who started the process of obtaining a GRC and had to say that they intended to have surgery or they would not have been put on hormones.

It makes sense for such a radical step as changing the sex on one's birth certificate, to come with complete physical change.

when the European court made its ruling there were only thought to be 2-5000 trans in the UK and they were all expected to have genital surgery.

Well yes, and no just under 5000 people have a GRC, and we are told that its clearly not working as intended. But..its working exactly as intended and helping the small amount of people it was supposed to help.

The EA appears to permit justifiable exclusion of trans from single-sex. But
a) it permits, does not require, so organisations are in no way obliged to protect single sex spaces,
b) it appears to contradict the GRA - if I understand correctly, you can exclude trans, but you cannot find out whether someone is trans in the first place!

Both GRA and EA are both useless legislation in this respect. EA because it has no teeth, and GRA because it is an unscientific bit of twaddle. I do not understand how refusing to validate a delusion (caused by their mental illness) breaches a person's human rights.

Agreed Lang. That's what I meant. It needs reforming, but in ways that will be useful for protecting women, not erode the few protections there are.

SarahAr - did I mention changing rooms here? If you actually pay attention you might have noticed that.

SwearyG - did I mention changing rooms here? Your repeated personal attacks are not helping the debate.

Regarding disclosure of a GRC, section 22 of the GRA makes it a criminal offence with a fine of up to £5000.

It is a crappy bit of the legislation if I'm honest and it shouldn't be there, but it is what it is. I think, at worst it should be a civil matter.

You cannae ask for a GRC.

You can ask for a GRC. All section 22 does it prevent you telling your mates down the pub that so and so is trans. The EHRC discuss when you can ask for a GRC in its statutory guidance www.equalityhumanrights.com/sites/default/files/servicescode_0.pdf.

2.27 Transsexual people should not be routinely asked to produce their Gender Recognition Certificate as evidence of their legal gender

So you cannot routinely ask for a GRC (that would be discrimination) but you can ask for one if you have good reason.

What I mention here is that the provision to exclude male women (trans identified men) from spaces exists in the EA but it is unenforceable because, as Bronners says the GRA has a section that states you can’t ask to see a GRC, which is what would show someone to be trans.

This is completely wrong. As I have explained you can ask for a GRC if needed. Two examples may make this clearer.

Imagine you run a group counselling session that is provided for female victims of sexual assault. If someone who is obviously a transwomen joins, you could exclude her under the EA exceptions if it is for a legitimate aim and is proportional.

But alternatively someone who might be a transwomen joins but you are not sure. Therefore you would like to ask her for her GRC before excluding her. The problem is not that you cannot ask for a GRC, you can. The problem is that if you cannot tell they are trans it would be unlikely they would fit into the EX exceptions.

From the EHRC statutory code of practice 13.59:

Service providers should be aware that where a transsexual person is visually and for all practical purposes indistinguishable from a non-transsexual person of that gender, they should normally be treated according to their acquired gender, unless there are strong reasons to the contrary.

OK So can we join this campaign to revise the EA to insist that they strengthen sex exemptions? Make sure in certain areas they must be applied? This would be something worth fighting for.

This Equality Act claim is a lie being parroted temporarily in order to get self ID on the books.

This is all new to me and it's shocking how much it changed without me knowing, but I don't think that gov response helps. As others have realised the service providers are going to take the easiest route and anyone objecting will be causing a breach of the peace.

To do anything at all it needs to be an offence to enter a place intended for the opposite sex and an offence to knowingly allow it.

LastTrainEast - yes - but how to enforce it?

Almost impossible as far as I can see, but at least if it were illegal that would be something.

I was trying to explain to someone how bad this could be and they were thinking that worst case you might suspect that a person in the changing room or sitting next to you on the bus was a different sex than they appeared, but not be sure.

I was saying things like "how about if you wait outside while your daughter goes in a public toilet and six bikers with beards and beer cans follow her in and you can't say anything as the bikers 'might be little girls really".
They wouldn't have to be trans at all and it's not like all trans people are monsters anyway. It's the crazy laws that are the problem and what they lead to.

I was saying things like "how about if you wait outside while your daughter goes in a public toilet and six bikers with beards and beer cans follow her in and you can't say anything as the bikers 'might be little girls really".

Protection against discrimination for people with the protected characteristic of "gender reassignment" against discrimination in goods and services have been the law for 10 years. Firstly as part of the Sex Discrimination Act and then the Equality Act.

The number of court cases has been minimal - I only know of one. In this case a transgender woman was refused access to a female in a pub. I have not seen any service provider go on record and say we need to discriminate against trans people - but the EA won't let us.

In the hypothetical situation described above you call the police and tell the service provider - let them worry about the law. And guess what the EA will not protect the hypothetical bikers.

Spreading false information does not help women's rights.

Well do stop then SarahAr.

And stop managing us, your male socialisation is showing.

Spreading false information does not help women's rights.

Every single time! Accusation = admission. Just can't help themselves.

If you could stop dissembling, SarahAr, then we could all get on with furthering women's rights.

In this case a transgender woman was refused access to a female in a pub

Damn, that's quite the Freudian slip.