What would it look like?

[Bewilderednow]

First in the hope of clear answers, and so I'm not viewed with suspicion, I am transgender. My question is what would legislation look like if you could pass every law regarding transgender issues tomorrow? Thank you for reading and for any response.

Let's see what bothers me? I was a punching bag from my first post.

As others have said, posters have engaged constructively with your question and given suggestions for how the differing needs of women & girls and trans individuals might be accommodated. I don’t see anyone behaving in a way that would justify the use of the phrase “punching bag.” There are plenty of threads where the OP does get their arse handed to them on a plate, but this isn’t one of them. You really need to spend some time in AIBU, perhaps one of the bridezilla threads, to see just how robust discussion on MN can be. This one has been rather sedate by most measures, its just that we don’t share the same point of view as you. 🤷‍♂️

LOL!

So, OP, do tell: how many times do you intend to flounce? Because if you want the site record for flounce and return, it'll take a good few more pages on this thread.

It's all so predictable: JAQing > refusing to engage with substantive points > appealing to female socialisation > raging and insulting > multiple flounce-and-returning. Nobody ever brings anything new.

Narcs gonna narc.

You do sound like you're in a cult, yeah. You're not answering questions. You're just saying you're being bullied by "TERFs".

It's quite scary reading your escalation into manipulation and outbursts, at what reads to me (for the most part) as a very logical, reasonable thread.

No wonder the world is giving in to some very weird ideas at the moment (like kids being given dangerous puberty blocker drugs) - who would dare tackle any demand anymore given the over-the-top emotional reactions?

There were lots of very positive posts on the first page but unfortunately the OP didnt seem to to like any of them or want to say what they thought about their own question

OP I’ve engaged with you politely.

It is tough to be on the wrong side of this lot but you haven’t seen half nor quarter. When people really don’t like you they start exchanging lemon drizzle cake recipes :)

Do you want some women’s rights to be removed for the benefit of trans women? If so, which? And what is your justification?

If it comes to it I'll go the civil disobedience route. You do realize that is an issue right? Transfolk won't stop should you win. Nor will they go gently into that goodnight

Lovely. 'Women, if we don't get what we want, we'll get violent fyi.'

Oh and removing a healthy, functioning organ is mutilation. I respect that for some people their distress is so severe and so intractable that it's an appropriate course of action. But it's still mutilation. And it's not ok when the person wishing to mutilate themselves is a)very young or b)vulnerable in some way either because of having autism or being a sexual assault victim.

It's all so predictable: JAQing > refusing to engage with substantive points > appealing to female socialisation > raging and insulting > multiple flounce-and-returning. Nobody ever brings anything new.

This with bells on!

In fairness it must be really, really weird to come from a protective bubble, a place of complete acceptance and validation and total praise and "you're so brave, whatever you want", to any form of questioning, at all.

It must mentally hurt and make you feel terrified and angry in turn.

I suppose the problem is that when you're an insider you can't see outside.

Just like we can't imagine the concept of non-problematic unisex facilities from now on, people on the "outside" (who don't give a shit) can't understand why they'd be a problem, until it affects them personally.

Likewise, biological men cannot really understand why and how they'd ever be seen as threats to women, because they've never been one.

Anyone who cannot conceptualise consent and flies into a narcissistic rage when consent is withheld, is a risk to women. OP may not want to hear that, but it is true. And if OP cannot hear that, it's a massive red flag.

I barely had time to drink my tea!

You get offended by any access for transpeople. Any. So discussion over.

Very simply, in big blunt crayon letters:

men as a class are dangerous to women
We have sex segregated spaces to keep women safe
Transwomen are men, and retain the offending patterns of men.

Now - why should they be in our spaces? Why should ANY man be in our spaces?

Completely agree Babelfish

I’m fairly new to the feminist boards but I have also commented on another trans posters AMA thread.

The question I asked repeatedly was evaded and it’s because it comes down to knowing the valid reasons women have and not caring, and it seems to be the reason is rather validation than necessity.

If it was a genuine safety concern then any legislation relating to the safety then I can’t underatand why safe places for trans people specifically is not good enough, if you are taking into account the fact that women need their own spaces. Women do not need people who are not women to decide for them that actually we don’t need those resources and are being selfish by defending them, for fuck sake.

I genuinely cannot understand the venom and vitriol the OP is displaying to this logical and reasoned sentiment expressed by so many women on this thread. The motivation is never clearly expressed by posters like these.

It's all so predictable: JAQing > refusing to engage with substantive points > appealing to female socialisation > raging and insulting > multiple flounce-and-returning. Nobody ever brings anything new.

Narcs gonna narc.

They're gonna narc, and they're gonna make damn sure you acknowledge them!

Anyone who cannot conceptualise consent and flies into a narcissistic rage when consent is withheld, is a risk to women. OP may not want to hear that, but it is true. And if OP cannot hear that, it's a massive red flag.

This. I don't want any of these males and their issues with women in female spaces.

It seems strange to start a thread like this not having an answer to the 'women and girls need sex segregation' point. Surely that's always been the problem - it's impossible to retain sex segregation in a mixed sex space.

I'm not sure if Bewilderednow thought they could side step the issue, or find enough common ground that losing sex segregation stops being important. Or does Bewilderednow believe it is possible to change sex? Whatever their motivation they underestimate women's intelligence.

Tell the world that transpeople are not valid - said no-one on the FWR Board ever.

Realize that your position erases our lived identity. This statement deserves a gold medal for the sheer irony.

You claim to fight against female erasure by erasing transfolk. No, we don't, stating there are differences between females and transfolk and that the differences need to be acknowledged and respected does not equal erasure.

You claim to fight against female erasure by erasing transfolk

Far from it. There are trans people (old school transsexuals) who say they, and their concerns and distinct needs, are being erased by the current transgenderist moves. It's self-ID which is the real problem - the idiocy of 'anyone who says they feel like a woman is a woman'. This is problematic for both women and dysphoric trans people. 'Transfolk' really need to propose ways to sort this out before complaining about women's concerns.

SilverDoe I genuinely cannot understand the venom and vitriol the OP is displaying to this logical and reasoned sentiment expressed by so many women on this thread.

3rd rule of misogyny: Women speaking for themselves are exclusionary and selfish.

Fundamentally, it always boils down to whether you believe:

a) TW = W
or
b) TW ≠ W

Most transwomen seem to believe b) while gender critical feminists (and most people I've spoken to apart from the woke brigade) believe a).

I'm really not sure how you align those two positions.

Oh FFS I got my a)s and b)s the wrong way round!!

That should read:

Most transwomen seem to believe a) while gender critical feminists (and most people I've spoken to apart from the woke brigade) believe b).

Some TRAs (I don't mean the OP) seem to believe:
C) TW != M && TW > W ( && M > W, obv)

YY ETD!

Most transwomen seem to believe b)

They require everyone else to belive it. But I’ve asked rather a lot of people on here ‘can humans change sex?’ And nobody, ever, has said a simple yes. I’ve had an awful lot of flannel about gender and feelings and mithering about souls, but no one has nailed their colours to the mast and said they think human beings can change sex.

So I have ask myself, if they don’t believe it either, why do they insist everyone else builds their world around it?

And I can only answer along narcissistic control lines

I should actually clarify that I mean TRAs, not transwomen In general - the posters on here who are transitioned transwomen lean more towards acknowledging they are male but wish to have a female body/suffer from gender dysphoria. That’s a position I have a great deal of sympathy for.

As well as those who claim that woman has nothing to do with female, I think many are now denying sex exists in a meaningful way. For example TIM with breast implants are the same as a women who have had hysterectomies; a boy who hasn't been through puberty is the same as a girl going through puberty.

So many talk about advanced biology and sex as a spectrum, claiming that we have so much to learn. Therefore rather than claim we can change sex, I see people arguing that we don't understand sex.

Increasingly, I'm seeing people argue that because we don't understand so much of biology, we cannot accurately predict someone's sex, therefore it's less relevant than gender. We can trust someone's inner feelings more than complicated biology.

I am open minded though, as an experiment I'm going identify as a non women to avoid the menopause. Wish me luck.