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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Free vote over abortion in NI on the cards???

49 replies

RedToothBrush · 05/06/2018 14:58

Earlier today

Beth Rigby @ bethrigby
May privately telling MPs she can’t override Stormont over #abortion (1. need to get an assembly up & running 2. small matter of the EU withdrawal bill votes). But on my count the no of Tory MPs agitating on this outnumbers the 10 DUP MPs she relies on for votes. Who’ll win out?

Then:
NEW: Am told that Karen Bradley's speech in @stellacreasy's #abortionlaws debate will 1] confirm PM support on the issue 2] confirm its a free vote issue 3] UK parliament is entitled to act. Does that pave a way for an amendment to the domestic violence bill?

Keep your eyes peeled.
NI might be about to follow Ireland.

OP posts:
FermatsTheorem · 05/06/2018 15:02

Much as I would love to see a free vote, I don't see this happening. May can't afford to let the DUP bring down her government. I don't see the Tory MPs pressing for this actually believing it's worth bringing their government down for either.

(I think they ought to have a free vote, but political self-preservation instincts being what they are, I can't see it actually happen. Will be delighted if I'm proved wrong, obviously.)

ReadytoTalk · 05/06/2018 15:06

If they overrule the dup on this then will that compromise further votes that they need the dup to support them on?

ballsballsballs · 05/06/2018 15:06

Fingers crossed. I'm going to write to my MP.

RedToothBrush · 05/06/2018 15:12

Debate is going on now:

www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/41170c74-7746-4828-bb95-bb0ff11356e0

Maria Miller has just been saying 'why is there a disconnect between public opinion and legislation?'

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RedToothBrush · 05/06/2018 15:13

DUP MP Jeffery Donaldson is standing up talking about the virtuous speeches of Republicans on the subject of abortion...

sniggers

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Prawnofthepatriarchy · 05/06/2018 15:14

How exciting. Will wait to hear. Placemarking in the meantime.

spontaneousgiventime · 05/06/2018 15:15

I'm watching the debate on the BBC Parliament channel. I'm sceptical it will truly be a free vote. The Tories need the DUP and the DUP don't want abortion.

GibbertyFlibbert · 05/06/2018 15:18

Wherever one stands on the debate, and whether Unionist or Republican, it is difficult to justify Northern Ireland being out of step with the law in both Great Britain and in Eire.

spontaneousgiventime · 05/06/2018 17:06

I wish this debate had been timetabled earlier in the day. I've been watching it since it began and I keep missing speeches due to amongst other things, the meter reader and now cooking dinner. It's annoying, I wanted to be able to watch it all and hear all the speeches.

RedToothBrush · 05/06/2018 17:45

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/may-gives-personal-support-to-relaxing-northern-irish-abortion-law-hd892sqnz
Theresa May gives personal support to relaxing Northern Irish abortion law

And

www.politicshome.com/news/uk/social-affairs/welfare/news/95716/tory-mps-wont-be-ordered-oppose-northern-ireland-abortion
Tory MPs won't be ordered to oppose Northern Ireland abortion shake-up, minister confirms

Speaking in an emergency debate on the issue secured by Labour backbencher Stella Creasy, Northern Ireland Secretary Karen Bradley confirmed that the Government - which relies on the support of Northern Ireland's traditionalist Democratic Unionist Party to get is programme through the Commons - would give MPs a free vote on any future attempt to overhaul abortion laws.

"This is a matter of conscience," she said. "A free vote on this issue in this House would be afforded if the matter of abortion comes before the House again, and the same applies in Northern Ireland."

But the minister, who said she was "personally" in favour of reform, also appeared to rule out any specific government proposal, batting away calls from Ms Creasy to scrap the 1861 Offences Against the Persons Act, which makes it illegal for pregnant women in Northern Ireland to get an abortion in most circumstances.

Ms Bradley said: "The Government, like its predecessors, believes that the best forum to debate and resolve these and many other matters is in the locally-elected Northern Ireland assembly.

And the but is a big but

Stormont was in breech of an EHCR ruling that said NI was in breech of human rights on the issue of abortion. They were ordered to change the law accordingly.

But since all the membership of all the major parties in NI are dominated by religious zealots, they sat on their hands and pretty much all refused to do anything, despite public opinion being in favour of reform.

And now it appears we have a national government and PM saying 'oh well we think reform needs to be done, but we aren't going to do anything about it because it should be down to the northern Ireland assembly to represent their own people'.

So they too are sitting on their hands, despite having the ability to do something. Their excuse that it should be in the hands of the people of NI is horseshit.

It neglects the minor point that a) the will of the people of NI is deemed irrelevant by Stormont on this matter b) both nationalists and unionists didn't want to change the law then and they still won't want to even if Stormont was reconvened and c) stormont was in breech of a ECHR ruling on human rights d) stormont is currently banjaxed so in theory the UK government itself is responsible for the breech of the ECHR ruling e) the DUP has no interest in restoring Stormont f) neither does the conservative party

Thus Theresa May and the Conservatives can say as they see fit (to please English liberal voters), and the DUP can say all the religious pro-life nonsense they like.

Both safe in the knowledge and with a probable agreement that it's safe to do so with no political consequences because they are happy with the suspension of Stormont (especially in the context of Brexit).

It's an appalling manipulation of the situation.

And neither really give a shit about women. And they know that English voters don't give a shit about NI.

Meaningless bullshit, Labour should rip the shreds off them with.

Except they won't. Cos Corbyn rather likes the current situation (limits the difficult questions over Brexit after all) and I suspect would ultimately love anything that might undermine the union and lead to a united Ireland. To hell with how that affects anyone in NI in the interim.

Fucking bastards the lot of them.

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J4nice · 06/06/2018 03:39

The title is very misleading NI always had stood for national insurance in relation to the nhs

Why couldn't you have just used northern Island in the title instead

AltheaorDonna · 06/06/2018 05:52

J4nice are you serious?

J4nice · 06/06/2018 05:59

@AltheaorDonna yes I struggle to understand as I have autism

Cwenthryth · 06/06/2018 07:22

Just catching up with this on iPlayer - if you go to House of Commons live on yesterday’s date, it starts about 2 hours in.

Bowlofbabelfish · 06/06/2018 07:33

Excellent post redtoothbrush

Someone on here called the DUP ‘the provisional wing of the 17th century’ and I have to say I agree....

GibbertyFlibbert · 06/06/2018 07:39

"J4nice are you serious?"

Yes. She struggles with all the abbreviations on Mumsnet. As a new member I found them difficult, so it must be terrible for someone with autism joining Mumsnet.

Bowlofbabelfish · 06/06/2018 07:44

Are you from the British isles? NI is used constantly in print, media, web etc news coverage. It’s not an unusual abbreviation/acronym at all. National insurance would make no sense given the rest of the headline, and the fight to repeal the 8th in the republic has been in the news constantly so this would be the logical association to make.

I do wonder if many of our latest persistent incomers are based on the other side of the pond...

Cwenthryth · 06/06/2018 08:07

Resist the derail!

Just watching the speeches from yesterday now. Stella Creasey is arguing for UK-wide decriminalisation - repealing sections 58 & 59 of the offence against the persons act - which will then allow NI to develop devolved legislation as they see fit. I don’t agree with SC on everything but she is doing sterling work here.

It does all seem somewhat sadly doomed to failure in the current climate though, because of politics. Lack of assembly in Stormont, the reliance of the government on DUP votes to function. Until that changes I don’t see how things can move forward with this issue.

CaitlynsCat · 06/06/2018 08:14

GibbertyFlibbert & J4nice are TRAs, do not feed them

Bowlofbabelfish · 06/06/2018 08:20

I wonder if the rest of the UK could use this push to reform our own abortion law as well? To make it actually legal on demand up to say 18 weeks instead of the current situation?

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 06/06/2018 08:22

I think it may take a while but i dont think they can have one law in ireland and england/scotland/wales and another in NI

Even political people who dont care about the issue will leap on it as a way to get to May/the tory party

Cwenthryth · 06/06/2018 08:23

I’m up to Karen Bradley’s speech now. She deflected a question from a Scottish MP - asking for confirmation that if the Supreme Court uphold the ECHR ruling that the current situation in NI breaches international human rights - then Westminster have a duty to act to uphold international treaties within the UK.

Is that right? Apparently this ruling is due tomorrow. If the SC upholds the ECHR ruling, will that force Westminster’s hand?

Cwenthryth · 06/06/2018 09:14

Going to have to do some work and listen to the rest later now, but Anna Soubry’s contribution was heartening as well. She admitted having her mind changed by Creasey and is in support of the proposal.

QuackPorridgeBacon · 06/06/2018 09:49

Ive never understood how we are part of the UK, share laws andyhe NHS and benefit system, yet somehow on this issue we are left behind. It’s a joke. Not sure we can actually vote on the matter but I don’t think things will change given the bat shit craziness of religion over here. Fuck women basically.

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