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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Free vote over abortion in NI on the cards???

49 replies

RedToothBrush · 05/06/2018 14:58

Earlier today

Beth Rigby @ bethrigby
May privately telling MPs she can’t override Stormont over #abortion (1. need to get an assembly up & running 2. small matter of the EU withdrawal bill votes). But on my count the no of Tory MPs agitating on this outnumbers the 10 DUP MPs she relies on for votes. Who’ll win out?

Then:
NEW: Am told that Karen Bradley's speech in @stellacreasy's #abortionlaws debate will 1] confirm PM support on the issue 2] confirm its a free vote issue 3] UK parliament is entitled to act. Does that pave a way for an amendment to the domestic violence bill?

Keep your eyes peeled.
NI might be about to follow Ireland.

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QuarksandLeptons · 06/06/2018 10:24

Good to some pro women sentiments from UK politicians. Fingers crossed. Pretty unlikely due to the reliance on the DUP of the current administration but great that it’s being acknowledged as a problem that needs to resolved

RedToothBrush · 06/06/2018 14:21

She deflected a question from a Scottish MP - asking for confirmation that if the Supreme Court uphold the ECHR ruling that the current situation in NI breaches international human rights - then Westminster have a duty to act to uphold international treaties within the UK.

Is that right? Apparently this ruling is due tomorrow. If the SC upholds the ECHR ruling, will that force Westminster’s hand?

I missed this from yesterday (got too angry).

I was not aware of the court case, but yes the point of the case will be to establish that the government is legally obliged to change the law. And yes in the absence of Stormont that responsibility would fall to the government.

HOWEVER, I think I m cautious as to what difference that might actually make. As a legal point it only has so much weight in the sense that I don't see there being a deadline to doing so. If the government can somehow put the legislation into the system but give it a low priority, as long as something is being done within parliament on the issue the government could legally argue they are taking their legal responsibility seriously. I suspect that the something could just playing political football with this issue without actually resolving it though - and not a lot different from where we are now anyway.

It could add pressure on the Government / DUP but I am not sure in practice that it would be possible to force legislation without real political will behind it. It would just be slow tracked or obstructed repeatedly.

As for NI in the title. Its a general abbreviation in common usage. If your general knowledge is lacking to that degree that's not my problem and there is very little that people can do to accommodate it on a regular basis. How do you cope with abbreviations in other social media or in text messages??! Use your initiative to find out stuff your don't understand rather than criticising other people for talking normally, using regular language. Regular language and regular abbreviations are just that. Did you know that the abbreviation NI can also commonly be used for nickel, the north island of New Zealand, national insurance and the internet domain for Nicaragua? How bloody inconsiderate! Context is everything... FFS

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RedToothBrush · 07/06/2018 09:56

Emma Vardy @EmmaVardyTV
BREAKING: Supreme Court dismisses Northern Ireland abortion appeal, but sends strong message to government with majority of judges concluding NI abortion law is incompatible with human rights

5 of the 7 judges concluded that the near-ban on abortions in NI is incompatible with human rights in cases of fatal foetal abnormality, where a baby would die in the womb or soon after birth

There was also a majority (4/3) who believed that NI law which forbids abortion in cases of rape and incest, is also incompatible with human rights

Lord Mance: “I would have concluded without real hesitation....that the current state of Northern Ireland is incompatible with Art 8 (of the European Convention of Human Rights)...in cases of fatal foetal abnormality, rape and incest”

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RedToothBrush · 07/06/2018 09:59

Gosh BBC journalists use the abbreviation NI in their tweets!

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RedToothBrush · 07/06/2018 10:06

Adam Wagner @AdamWagner1
It's right to say as @Anisminic does that @UKSupremeCourt ruled by a majority that abortion laws breached Article 8, but not Article 3. That's very important especially for future cases but still it's an odd result as technically the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission lost

Lord Kerr giving an unusually emotive speech. Starts with mention of brave women. Makes clear that the two justices who wouldn't support the majority on the substantive issues did not expressly say the current laws did comply with human rights. Sounds like some unhappy justices

Helena Lee @BBCHelenaLee
At the Supreme Court where in the last few minutes the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission (NIHRC) has lost its human rights challenge against Northern Ireland’s abortion law on a technical legal point.

The Court ruled that the NIHRC did not have ‘competence’ to bring the challenge.

So women win but lose and the government win but lose.

But movement in the correct direction...

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FermatsTheorem · 07/06/2018 10:13

So am I getting this right, Red? The judges essentially threw it out on a technicality - that only a pregnant woman could herself make such a legal challenge, not the NIHRC. But then indicated that were a pregnant woman to bring such a challenge, the court would find in her favour.

(The loopy "NI=national insurance" poster has been banned for trolling, btw.)

Cwenthryth · 07/06/2018 13:48

So women win but lose and the government win but lose.

Or the government lose but win?

So the SC have made a judgement that the situation in NI is incompatible with human rights. But no one has any duty to do anything about that, unless an individual pregnant woman does exactly what the NIHRC has just done? We are to expect an individual woman to shoulder that burden, probably publicly. How ridiculously unfair, to put it mildly.

Am watching the remaining speeches from Tuesday now. Heartened to see politicians from all parties - except the DUP - making reasoned, clear calm speeches in favour of reforming abortion law.

I want more than positive messages though. I want change, yesterday.

RedToothBrush · 07/06/2018 14:32

Its more nuanced that that, but it makes a very important point: Human Rights are not a devolved matter... Westminster has a responsibility here.

Human Rights Activist @AdamWagner1 has explained it best I think:

Adam Wagner @AdamWagner1
BREAKING: Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission loses challenge to restrictive abortion laws on a technicality

The Court would have ruled abortion laws breached Art 8 (family & private life) but not Art 3 (inhuman/degrading treatment). But because it ruled, also by narrow majority, that Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission did not have "standing", it still lost case. What a shambles

It's right to say as @Anisminic does that @UKSupremeCourt ruled by a majority that abortion laws breached Article 8, but not Article 3. That's very important especially for future cases but still it's an odd result as technically the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission lost

Lord Kerr giving an unusually emotive speech. Starts with mention of brave women. Makes clear that the two justices who wouldn't support the majority on the substantive issues did not expressly say the current laws did comply with human rights. Sounds like some unhappy justices

Lord Kerr at great pains to stress that none of the five justices disagreed with the ruling that the Northern Irish abortion laws breach human rights. Majority "has expressed a clear opinion" that the law incompatible with Article 8 (right to family and private life)

Lord Wilson and Kerr (2 out of 5) would have ruled that abortion laws breached Article 3 (inhuman and degrading treatment). Lady Hale, oddly, decided not to express a view on that because of her conclusions on Article 8, which were obiter anyway because of the technicality.

Lord Kerr: our findings are not binding on lower courts. Very important. "But the comprehensive discussion on question of compatibility thought not in any sense binding must be worthy of close consideration for those in whom hands power lies to decide if law is to be altered"

^1. So, let's sum up where we are with this complicated judgment.
First, most importantly for legal result of ruling. Court rejected, by a 3-2 majority, the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission's right to bring the claim. Their "victim status". Means technically they lost.^

2. However, the Court went on to say what it would have decided had the NI Human Rights Commission had standing to bring the claim. And it would have decided - also by 3-2 majority - that most of NI abortion laws breached Article 8, human right to private and family life

3. AND it would have decided (I know language is weird but it's the way things work when you lose on a technicality - will explain) that laws did not breach article 3 (inhuman/degrading treatment) but sounds like a 2:2:1 decision as Lady Hale didn't tell us what she thought!

4. So to summarise:
NI Human Rights Commission
- lost on standing by 3:2 majority
- Would have won on Article 8 also by 3:2 majority
- Not clear what would have happened on Article 3, but sounds like Hale may have gone against and didn't want to say as she didn't have to

5. What does this mean for the lasting effect of this judgment? Well, it's complicated. Technically because the NI HRC lost, the lower courts are not "bound" by the decision. So if a woman brought a case tomorrow challenging the laws she would have a rough ride

6. Would have a rough ride because NI HRC lost in both Court of Appeal (on substance) & Supreme Court (on technicality). So High Court would have no choice but to reject claim and send it up. Eventually may reach Supreme Court but lots can happen in highly charged political cases

7. That's not end of story. What we have now is a strong indication from Supreme Court where law is going. Lord Kerr gave an emotive appeal to "those in power" to consider fact that 3 justices said laws breach human rights and the other 2 didn't disagree though they didn't agree!

8. Unfortunately, the reality is in a highly charged political climate as there is with abortion, the complexity and nuance you need to understand the Court's approach will be lost and used by anti-abortion campaigners to say it's a nullity. Which is a great shame

9. Reading between lines (and I haven't yet read the full judgment) it sounds to me like the majority of the Court which ruled the laws were incompatible were very unhappy that the important principled result was undermined by the - let's call it what it is - absurd technicality

10. I said earlier that this is a shambles. It is. Difficult to overemphasise amount of time, effort, money to take a case all the way to the Supreme Court. It takes years. Potentially hundreds of thousands of pounds. The Court should be doing its duty and reaching clear rulings

11. Many apologies for having screwed up the numbering of justices. Press summary here:
- 4:3 majority said no standing to bring claim
- 4 said would have breached Art 8
- 4 said wouldn't have breached Art 3

12. One other thought. For a human rights commission (regulator) to be unable to bring a claim to prevent a breach happening, but instead have to wait for it to occur, is absurd . Human rights commissions shouldn't have to wait for someone to be hurt by a bad law.

In other words the case got thrown out because no one's human rights have been breeched (or more accurately no one whose rights have been breeched has been prepared to challenge the law). The law says that even though the court recognises that in theory human rights could be breeched in this area should the situation arise. Despite this human rights organisations have no legal power to close this gap through the courts - indeed the courts have ruled against them, which anti-abortionists will take as victory.

HOWEVER the Supreme Court has effectively said this is a load of bollocks and the government should act to close this effective loop hole as its a bunch of arse.

Unfortunately a women who found herself in this situation would still have to take it to court to undo all this and challenge the law. Yet in the course of doing so, would have to understand and know that because of the way the law works (by precedent) the High Court would have no choice but to rule against her because legal precedent has been set by this case, because the NIHRC lost previously.

The case could then be referred to the Supreme Court, who in the nuance of their ruling have made a lot of noise to say they would find in favour of a women who was eligible to bring the case to the court because they believe that rights would be breeched. But they can't actually make that ruling in this case, because the law doesn't work like that.

The Supreme Court judges - inparticular Lord Kerr - are rather pissed off about this, because they are frustrated that they are unable to make the ruling they should do, which would protect women from being put in a situation where such a case would be necessary and save them the distress from having to go through the whole palaver of bringing another legal case.

Instead, they have tried to say as explicitly as they can, how future cases should be handled, but they lack the power to bind lower courts to follow their judgement on this matter, because of the technically. Its almost like its an advisory ruling rather than a precedent. Which is why its so messy.

Instead the court has been somewhat political, in saying the law needs to be changed and should be changed, but they can't rule it must be. And said, that in theory, they would rule in favour of a woman ultimately, but they would have to go through the entire pointless process to get there.

Does that make sense?

In the short term it means the government can kick the issue into the long grass in practical terms, but it does very much add to the pressure to change the law, because the Supreme Court is in effect saying to the government, that there is a fair old chance they would lose a future case, if a woman was brave enough to go all the way and the government would be held liable and it might be a rather good idea to take action to prevent that from happening.

Politically losing such a case would probably be politically damaging to the government, so you'd fancy that if a case WAS brought, they might well try and head it off early - either via an out of court settlement and/or by seeking an emergency change in the law to try and persuade a woman to drop the case whilst it was in the process of going through the courts.

I think! Its not easy to follow by any means.

The ruling is frustrating and really doesn't ultimately solve the problem the case sort to resolve. Indeed it makes it even messier. But the nuance and detail of the ruling is essentially pro-woman's rights.

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Bowlofbabelfish · 07/06/2018 14:37

Could a woman who had previously had an abortion ‘admit’ it and challenge?

I’m struggling to see where we go from here to get positive change. Would a challenge to UK law be best and NI hitch on that?

Apologies if these are dim questions, the law is not my area ...

RedToothBrush · 07/06/2018 15:03

Its the law in NI that is the problem. Thus NI can't 'hitch on that', because its about the NI law.

In theory, a woman who had been in the situation where their unborn foetus was deemed not to be able to survive and they were therefore forced to continue the pregnancy against their will would be the best person bring a challenge. I THINK this would also have to have gone to term with her life theoretically been put at risk for it to be a particularly strong case.

I could be wrong on this, but I don't think a woman who came to the rest of the UK to have an abortion under those circumstances could necessarily bring the case - mainly because their case might be deemed not strong enough on those grounds because she had the means to do so, and the UK government has now said they would facilitate women who want to travel to be treated under the NHS. They might well win, but test cases, usually have to be robust and strong to get anywhere.

The main reason being that it requires money to bring such a case, and a case which isn't strong could make it more difficult for future cases, so lawyers/activists handling such cases will want to present the best case they possibly can to the courts.

In the current political climate I wouldn't rule it out completely though; its entirely possible that we are now at the stage where the house of cards is so unstable that any sort of good huff and puff could blow it all over, if it had enough public support, even if the case was not 'the strongest possible'.

It might simply need a particularly emotive case, with a good campaign behind it, even if on paper the case was not legally deemed the best out there.

I am not a legal person either. I generally have a decent grasp of how law and politics interact but I might be wrong on some of this. This is merely how I'm understanding it by trying to translate legal comments on the subject. As I say, Adam Wagner is a good twitter follow on the subject and has been answering questions on the subject today.

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BarbarianMum · 07/06/2018 15:10

Whilst I am no lawyer and therefore don't really understand the legal ins and outs, am I alone in thinking it rediculously unfair that a woman in such an awful position should be forced to continue her pregnancy just so she can take this to court? How long would it even take? Would she then be forced to undergo a very late termination (or deliver a dead child) so she can challenge the law? And if she should lose her baby before the case is concluded, what then? Should it be dropped? Angry

RedToothBrush · 07/06/2018 15:12

BarbarianMum, that is effectively the point that Lord Kerr was making in his frustration at the Supreme Court having to rule against the NIHRC on a technically (despite theoretically saying they would rule in their favour otherwise) and why he was saying the government should pull their finger out.

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BarbarianMum · 07/06/2018 15:19

OK thanks - have read everything you've posted again and think I get it (a bit better) now. So the judiciary's hands are tied and, realistically, no pregnant woman can be expected to challenge the law, so the government needs to act. Is that it? slow

RedToothBrush · 07/06/2018 15:35

The judiciary's hands are tied.

Realistically why should a woman be forced into a position which breeches her human rights to challenge the law when the Supreme Court acknowledges already that their human rights would be breeched.

The Supreme Court is warning the government to avoid this situation and ultimately using its power by telling the government that they would be wiser to sort the mess out now rather than deal with the political fall of being seen to have sat on their hands even though they were given this warning by the Supreme Court.

And no you are not being slow. Its a bit of a mindfuck.

Its not simply a legal ruling.

It is by definition, because the court was unable to rule due to a technicality, a political issue as the court has pointed out explicitly that the law they are bound to, is not fit for purpose as it doesn't protect the people its supposed to serve.

Judges generally are not supposed to be political, yet this ruling through no fault of the judges - and largely due to poor law and conflicts within law that politicians have failed to adequately address - has placed them in this position.

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Cwenthryth · 07/06/2018 17:12

Sarah Ewart is going to be that woman!!!

Belfast woman to challenge NI abortion law (BBC)

FermatsTheorem · 07/06/2018 17:18

Well done Sarah Ewart! What a brave and upstanding woman.

Bowlofbabelfish · 07/06/2018 17:22

A woman of steel. Inspiring

Cwenthryth · 07/06/2018 17:23

And you can watch Creasey’s urgent question in parliament today (and governments response) here www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0b7rl5y

Cwenthryth · 07/06/2018 17:32

Karen Bradley’s (ie the government’s) response is still it’s a matter for Stormont. Interestingly Justine Greening asked her (paraphrasing) if Westminster should now be looking at what it can do, given Stormont is not functioning, and Bradley dodged the question.

RedToothBrush · 07/06/2018 17:34

Well that certainly makes life interesting given she was one of the cases referred to.

Good woman.

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RedToothBrush · 07/06/2018 17:39

Cwenthryth, there's a newstateman article on this problem.

The government can not do anything with the devolved government suspended. But they can't not do anything because of this case either.

It forces the hand to either get the DUP to sort out Stormont or go to direct rule which the government don't want to be seen to be doing.

Which is why Bradley will dodge the question as it forces the hand to be finally jump one way or the other rather than maintain the current limbo in wider NI politics.

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lightthedarkness · 07/06/2018 17:45

Thank you RedToothBrush for such informative posts. Listening to the DUP MPs speaking in parliament about abortion was depressing. But it will change - can't be soon enough.

Cwenthryth · 07/06/2018 18:13

Bradley was asked the question by about 4 different MPs - will she accept Westminster needs to act in the absence of Stormont, how long is reasonable to wait for Stormont to sort itself out.... she dodged every one.

Clearly there is strong appetite for reform in Westminster, which is great.

QuackPorridgeBacon · 07/06/2018 18:21

So a pregnant woman has to challenge the law herself? I’m in Northern Ireland, I plan to be pregnant soon, can I challenge it even if I don’t go on to abort? I don’t mind it being public and I’ve got a mouth on me lol

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