What would you do?

[MillyTheKid]

A question for those fighting for female only spaces: If you are in a public toilet and a trans person comes in would you actually say something or just grit your teeth and get on with things? I suppose, given the fact that those campaigning on both sides of the argument aren't statistically huge in number, the chances of an encounter in a bathroom are quite small.

don’t understand the issue..... ( do you perceive transwomen as a threat of some sort ?)

Oh wow how cool are you

Barracker v observant

Yes I agree: if I saw a trans-identified female, I would understand why they didn't want to use the men.

Trans-identified male, not so much

Yes I agree: if I saw a trans-identified female, I would understand why they didn't want to use the men.

Well to be fair, it’s obvious why a TIM wouldn’t want to use the men’s.
If a TIM is going to encounter open ridicule and the threat of violence it’s going to be from men in a man only space.

So instead of choosing the logical route and asking men to redefine what it means to be a man and become more accepting, it’s women who are asked to redefine womanhood.

Actually not asked, told. Because no one has stopped to ask us and if we speak out we’re transphobes.

Ifyousee

Yes

We are relied upon so very understanding. and are, until it comes and bites us

Excellent post from chattylion

I'd challenge and report.

No disrespect to Caitlin Jenner, but I’m surprised that they been used as a an example of a trans woman who passes well enough to fool women.

Some transwomen can afford more FFS than others, which can make a huge difference, especially if they are still young. Likewise, those who have had puberty blockers/reassignment surgery when young (like that Jazz person whose full name I’ve forgotten). Some of those do ‘pass’, IMO (at least in still photographs but possibly not in RL), but the vast majority do not.

It feels unkind to discuss others’ appearance in this way, and I am not usually given to critiquing how others look, but I do find it frustrating when it is suggested that women have no idea who is a natal female and who is not.

Not trying to be cool. I am asking for you to explain your explanation as to where you are coming from... is it a principle thing or a concern that all trans people are some how sex deviants ( extreme option but just a few options ) I don’t actually know any trans people so I would be interested to hear from your experience.

Midd The issue is that some male bodied people are demanding access to space which has been reserved for women, rather than asking other males to be more tolerant of diversity. Ask yourself why we have segregated spaces for men and women. That segregation exists for a reason.

The problem is that not all trans women are created equal. There are trans women like Miranda, who respect women, and who just want to get on with their lives, without making demands of women. Sadly there is also quite a large and vocal group of transwomen who do not fall into this category.

Middlrm. Are you confused as to why we have sex segregation?

Have you not read the thread? I explained and so did others.

Is this a feeble attempt at trying to further discredit MNers as transphobic?

Milly,

If there was a very quiet older Muslim in the toilets and she was needing to remove her hijab, would you make sure a trans woman didn't enter?

Bear in mind that the person you think is a trans man might just be a butch lesbian (many butch lesbians will tell you that they are often mistaken for men). Anne Ruzylo for example mentions it in a recent Youtube video.

I'm not a butch lesbian, and I've been mistaken for a man. It soon gets smoothed over.

However its still a fact that some women can't remove their scarf, wig or head covering in front of a biological man. And those women have rights too.

Wakame, that’s true, but I don’t think it’s an issue. Gender critical feminists absolutely want to share our spaces with transmen, as they are biological women, and safer in female-only spaces. I don’t think you would find any of us challenging a TIF (or for that matter a butch lesbian who may look masculine) in a loo or changing room. Because I think it’s generally quite obvious that they are female.

Wakame: butch lesbians or no, none of this would be a problem if males would respect female boundaries. Sadly they choose not to.

Wakame: butch lesbians or no, none of this would be a problem if males would respect female boundaries. Sadly they choose not to.

Exactly.

I don't care if trans men want to use the men's.

Same. If men object then that's an additional voice, but it's not our battle. Also if they're scary looking enough to intimidate us, why wouldn't they 'pass' in the gents? If you look like buck angel and are using the women's toilet there's something dekiberately malign about your choice.

Agreed. That’s fine - men and female people who are trans and who want to use the men’s can decide about that.
We are talking about women, kids and female people who are trans, not wanting to have no choice about having men in the women’s toilets. Which is exactly what would happen under legal gender self ID if that comes in.

TIMS have no respect for women and our needs. Until they do, by keeping clear because we ask that, no respect if they step over that line. More important in other situations than loos...hospital bays, refuges , prisons ,and sport , changing rooms. But because of the behaviour of men in general, we have no means of distinguishing them. Keep the sex protected spaces.

I want to keep female spaces female, however I cannot really get too worked up about loos personally. However if I was with a friend who has been severely abused by male people, I would HAVE to say something really as she would just freeze up completely and possibly break down. I would hope, in that case that the male person was not a transactivists and was willing to 'compromise' and leave, but maybe not given its only ever demanded of female people to compromise/remove their own boundaries to make others more comofrtable

I was at a slightly alternative campsite at the weekend. Four cubicles in the ladies, two were loos and two were showers. As I helped my small daughter on the loo a man and his son came barrelling in and (very noisily) used the shower in the cubicle next to mine. I was furious and could not believe the audacity of the father for entirely disregarding the principle of a female sex segregated space and moreover not even checking with us (the females using it) as to whether we minded. Did I say anything - no.

It contrasts hugely with another campsite I was at where a man was hovering outside the ladies because his 4 year old daughter had gone in alone and been rather a long time. He asked me to check that she was alright. It turns out that she was struggling a bit so I suggested that he come in to help her. You could tell that the father found the whole thing awkward and was desperately trying not to cross any boundaries.

The whole loos thing is about women’s privacy and respecting women’s boundaries.

This is yet another reason why all new and refurbished facilities should be private individual spaces. The father should not have had to send his dd in alone or take her into the men's. I don't need to share intimate space with other women. I don't want to put myself at risk by sharing an intimate space with men. I want fully accessible and private unisex spaces, designed well. I also think male architects would design a lot more of them into public spaces if they knew that women would not be kept out of any of them!