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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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How do we scourge out racism and classism in feminism?

434 replies

Treesybreezy · 31/05/2018 17:00

I need to apologize upfront - I am disabled and also looking after a baby so I'm not going to be able to check back on this thread as frequently as I'd like. I will be back tho.

I've just read this by sister outrider sisteroutrider.wordpress.com/2018/01/15/dispatches-from-the-margins-on-women-race-and-class/amp/?__twitter_impression=true . I know there have been other threads where black women (or other ethnicities) have said, racism is a massive problem and there's been a large, reflexive defensive reaction from white women here.

I'm too tired to articulate this properly now in support of what sister outrider has said, but I've definitely seen both racism and classism in action.

How do we set this right?

OP posts:
JuzzaL · 03/06/2018 16:30

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

JuzzaL · 03/06/2018 16:32

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PermissionToSpeakSir · 03/06/2018 16:33

Oh come on. You know that "in feminism" means "among feminist women".

Mamaoya · 03/06/2018 16:34

I think the funniest part of the thread is how many people are using or referencing intersectionality theory - created by Black feminist scholars - while being confused as to whether feminism needs to include WOC.

PermissionToSpeakSir · 03/06/2018 16:36

It's so over used, when people use the word 'bigot' or 'bigoted' now, I think "blood-lusting, pampered, privileged pomo twat".

PermissionToSpeakSir · 03/06/2018 16:37

Do expand mamaoya

Mamaoya · 03/06/2018 16:56

Also, the idea that racism is just “well intentioned working class people using the wrong words and then being policed by super woke privileged POC” is ridiculously reductive.

Considering that someone on this thread tried to tell me slavery wasn’t an example of structural racism I realize that there may be confusion as to what racism is, and that, again, people have not really bothered to find out what they are talking about before very confidently asserting that they know what racism is (super woke people identity policing others, mostly, apparently) and how to fix it.

People take so much offence when you suggest they read and learn things like you’re threatening to send them to a re-education camp, but seriously, how can we have a critical useful discussion if people are just unwilling to know things?

Like the observation about black patriarchy and the assumption on this thread that black women/people/feminists never address this - have you read the Combahee River Collective statement by working class black lesbians from the 70s? How can you possibly claim that “nobody” challenges black patriarchy when the entire field of black feminist thought is about this and about their recognition of misogyny in the black power and civil rights movements? (Starting with books like Black Feminist Thought by Patricia Hill Collins, the collection This Bridge Called Our Backs, All the Women are White, All the Blacks Are Men, etc.) Soneone took the suggestion that people educate themselves as “performative woke signalling” but seriously - how can you think you can discuss these issues when you simply don’t know what you are talking about and so dismiss decades of feminist work out of ignorance? Do you know how offensive it is to claim that Black women and organizations never address black patriarchy? Go look up Alicia Garza’s tweets on Cosby, for example (the same BLM that was accused of defending Cosby!) When people are telling you to educate yourself and listen they’re not saying shut up white women, they’re saying there’s literally thousands of books and centuries of work (Sojourner Truth) talking about these things and it’s not reasonable to ignore it and continue talking as if it doesn’t exist. Again, how is that feminist?

By the way, a really great radical feminist book by the white butch lesbian Butch Lee is “Underground to Freedom: the rebiography of Harriet Tubman” that looks at the radical “Amazon” histories of Black women. “Military Strategies of Women and Girls” by the same author looks at liberal feminism and uncovers feminist histories around the world from Beguin nuns to Indigenous women to Nigerian women to undo the notion that feminism is only having more women generals and that there’s only a western, recent history of women’s history. People interested in challenging the idea that WOC have to be “included” in feminism - as though white women created and do feminism and other women don’t already have feminist practices - should read her work. I found it life changing. She is a truly radical writer who changed my thinking on feminism and also on how women can organize together in revolutionary ways.

flashnazia · 03/06/2018 17:10

I really appreciate your contributions @Mamaoya

Mamaoya · 03/06/2018 17:11

@PermissionToSpeakSir: Intersectionality was coined by the Black feminist Kimberlé Crenshaw to explain Black women’s specific oppression. Everyone in this thread thinking through how women belong to different identities and can’t be put in one box are using her theory - which itself built on decades of Black feminist thought.

Black women already “do” feminism and often more radically than white women because of the economic, political, social location Black women were/are acting from. Sojourner Truth literally calls this out in her Ain’t I A Woman speech to white women suffragettes like 150 years ago. Black women don’t need to be “included” in feminism - many of the most important ideas in feminism come from Black women’s thinking, organizing practices (how many feminist movements today rely on organizing strategies created - and appropriated by men - in the civil rights movement? Do you think the repeal campaign didn’t use strategies Black women understood, created, perfected? Literally the entire vocabulary of rights today is built on civil rights which was absolutely founded and driven by the unrecognized labour and organizing of black women.) we don’t need to be taught feminism - we never stopped being feminist (the survival of the people in enslavement was driven by black women).

People don’t even know the history gifted to them by the sacrifice of our foremothers that structures so many of their liberation strategies and then they want to know whether feminism actually should bother about black women at all and if it’s even about race?

I mean, Christ, I know who Emmeline Pankhurst and Mary Wollstonecraft are - is it too much to expect people to know histories of Black feminist women?

Mamaoya · 03/06/2018 17:11

www.law.columbia.edu/pt-br/news/2017/06/kimberle-crenshaw-intersectionality

Meant to post this link for you.

PeakPants · 03/06/2018 17:17

Mamaoya
Star Star Star Star Star

PermissionToSpeakSir · 03/06/2018 17:33

Thanks mamaoya for expanding.

PermissionToSpeakSir · 03/06/2018 17:39

BTW I am not saying Black feminists don't challenge Patriarchy (or are not key to feminism)- my criticism is of youngish, privileged pomo twats bastardising intersectional theory to vent misogyny and centre white men in feminism. Although much of what you said is obviously referring to other posts than mine.

Mamaoya · 03/06/2018 17:55

@PermissionToSpeak: no argument from me about the focus on language and individual indentity rather than organizing. So much of what passes for radical left politics now is not based in any grassroots organizing work or actual activity. I read a good article the other day about how it’s precisely because it doesn’t require any actual labour that “twitter wokeness” has become the central way in which people feel like they’re doing politics on the left.

So yes, I agree that language policing is not as central as, say, women organizing to fight landlords or run shelters or save women from abusive relationships or run literacy programs for each other etc etc. But I also don’t agree that therefore racism isn’t structural and real.

I personally think one strong way we fight inequality by organizing together and doing the hard work collectively to figure out how to problem solve.

TacoLover · 03/06/2018 18:11

Taco the title is far more strongly worded than that. Perhaps you don't sense it because you believe you are above reproach in your wokeness.
I'm honestly so confused how you can be offended by the title. Are you offended by the word scourge instead of remove or something? Because there is racism and classist within feminism. That is a fact. I don't know how you can be offended by that?

TacoLover · 03/06/2018 18:17

Thank you Mamaoya for that insightful post. I also disagree with people saying that telling people to 'educate themselves' is classist. If people are debating on a forum they have access to the Internet. Doing a bit of research is essential in today's age when discussing issues like these.

PermissionToSpeakSir where on this thread has anyone tried to centre men in feminism?

PermissionToSpeakSir · 03/06/2018 18:19

I wrote a long response and it disappeared and don't have time to rewrite apols

Imnobody4 · 03/06/2018 18:49

TacoLover
I understand the feelings about 'scourge'. The definition is linked to chastising, vengeance or punishment, a scourge being a whip. It's hard to see it being applied to an ideology and not individuals. I think it was a strange choice -synonyms are beat, castigate, chastise. It's actually pretty full on. Alternatives could be eliminate, address.

BeyondSceptical · 03/06/2018 19:37

Yeah when you think about it, the idea of whipping people into shape is probably a tad dodgy - given who is more likely to have been whipped in the UK historically.
Or maybe that is why it was chosen? I guess only op can answer that.

Thank you for your black feminism info mama, I will have a look for the books you mentioned.

PencilsInSpace · 03/06/2018 20:04

my criticism is of youngish, privileged pomo twats bastardising intersectional theory to vent misogyny and centre white men in feminism

Yes, I'm reminded of all the coverage of the women's march in the US where white women were continually castigated (almost universally by other white people) for the % of white women who voted for trump. I don't know how much of an overlap there was between women who voted for trump and women who went on a women's march but I can't imagine it's very big. There were no constructive suggestions for what white female attendees should do about all the white women who voted for trump. The message seemed to be that they should just feel bad, sit down, shut up and listen to Cherno Biko or whichever other abusive TIM had been wheeled out locally.

So much of what passes for radical left politics now is not based in any grassroots organizing work or actual activity. I read a good article the other day about how it’s precisely because it doesn’t require any actual labour that “twitter wokeness” has become the central way in which people feel like they’re doing politics on the left.

I agree with this. What did you think of the statement I posted upthread from the woman who runs a community project in Deptford? It mirrors my experience on the ground.

I also disagree with people saying that telling people to 'educate themselves' is classist.

This goes far beyond us lot debating here and it absolutely is classist. Same question to you, what do you think of the Deptford project statement upthread?

HebeMumsnet · 03/06/2018 20:14

Evening folks. We just wanted to pop by with a reminder that we'd really rather this thread didn't become a TAAT. We don't think that's happening just yet but there have been a few mentions of a deleted TAAT. It would be great if we could keep this one on track so we don't have to delete it as well. Thanks!

thebewilderness · 03/06/2018 20:49

Are you offended by the word scourge instead of remove or something?

I personally was deeply offended at the proposition that the racism and classism in feminism be be beaten out of feminists, but I shrugged it off as someone who did know the religious and racist history of the scourge.

The truth is that you can't beat or bully people out of being ignorant, mistaken, ill informed, or just plain wrong. I do not have the patience to persuade people of the error of their ways any more, but there are many here who do.

thebewilderness · 03/06/2018 20:50

Sorry for the typos. Did not know the history that should read.

SarahCarer · 03/06/2018 21:08

Thebewilderness are you feeling your age this weekend? I had never seen you reference it before and always thought you fairly young til these last few days (though wise)

Imnobody4 · 03/06/2018 21:25

BeyondSceptical
I sense sarcasm??? It doesn't bother me but it has obviously hurt others. I've always found that persuading and building allies is the way to go when approaching anti racism. ' Eyes on the prize' Gloating 'touched a nerve?' is just an own goal.