How do we scourge out racism and classism in feminism?

[Treesybreezy]

I need to apologize upfront - I am disabled and also looking after a baby so I'm not going to be able to check back on this thread as frequently as I'd like. I will be back tho.

I've just read this by sister outrider sisteroutrider.wordpress.com/2018/01/15/dispatches-from-the-margins-on-women-race-and-class/amp/?__twitter_impression=true . I know there have been other threads where black women (or other ethnicities) have said, racism is a massive problem and there's been a large, reflexive defensive reaction from white women here.

I'm too tired to articulate this properly now in support of what sister outrider has said, but I've definitely seen both racism and classism in action.

How do we set this right?

But aren't you doing the exact same thing with your language gymnastics. You ask people to 'engage' rather than 'call out'

Well I wouldn't call for anyone who mistook 'engage' and 'call out' for each other to be shunned..

I'd point out to them (you) that engaging implies a process between peers who are committed to reaching a better understanding of each other, whereas calling out tends to consist of a social media pile on with people gathering on two opposing sides and shouting at each other.

posh people using word salad to obscure an issue

Lol and yes.

When I speak using the terms expected in online/polite/feminist/woke spaces I am not unaware of the fact that some of my family and friends look at me like I'm an alien, or worse like I'm a snob who thinks I'm better than them. They don't necessarily disagree with the meaning of what I'm saying though, it's the vocab that is alienating.

Tbh (and posting to mark my place), I think racism and classism could probably do with their own thread each, to prevent all of the cross posting and cross discussion. Because each has different issues and I guess different solutions.

Unless we're going to also discuss why disabilism needs to be scourged?

Yy Joan.

Surely we should correct them respectfully so that they know better in the future?

The idea that there is a "correct" from of language, and a self-appointed group of "woke" people get to go around correcting everyone else for not speaking the way they believe to be "correct" is exactly the problem here.

But that's your understanding of 'call out', to me that phrase means challenging a point of view. On the numerous threads I have never called for people to be shunned, I have said I don't agree with what they are saying and that it makes me examine what actually lies behind people's opinions. I am ' engaging' by saying I find their statements uncomfortable. I think it's also naive to think engagement is always the answer, I can engage with people who are anti abortion, however no conversation I have will make me alter my opinion on that subject, I would fight for the right for them to express their views, but I am not going to go to a pro life rally.

Feminism is about women. We don't have to also be fighting class struggles, racism, or anything else, except in the sense of not adding to injustice

Also posting to mark place, but going back to this: Feminism really does need to consider class and race etc. or it will truly fail to benefit all women - as a pp points out.

It's the old example; feminists compel a company to achieve gender equality on their board. Race equality campaigners compel them to achieve race equality. They achieve both. Structural and unconscious prejudice means all the men are black and all the women are white. Who's helping the black women?

That's the very premise of intersectionality as I understand it.

Equally you can't discuss race and class separately because what you do to promote class equality may damage race equality and vice versa, as we've already seen evidenced on this thread re: exclusionary language vs. inoffensive language.

Agree 100% with you Rat. It is essential that feminism confronts issues of classism and racism. This is a fundamental tenet of feminism. You cannot be fighting for 'all women' unless you address these questions, as we have seen played out in slow-motion on this thread. The only people who can confidently say that feminism has nothing to do with class or race are those who are unaffected by it, ie white middle-class women.

I keep plugging her but Priyamvada Gopal on Twitter @PriyamvadaGopal is great on this. I don't agree with her on everything, but on this she is spot on. She has been subjected to hideous online and media abuse but the white feminist core at Cambridge have failed to come out in support of her. She writes extensively about how she is often asked to pipe down about race by white feminists. It's quite an eye-opener.

No-one is saying feminism doesn’t need to consider other class issues. Obviously it does because women don’t just belong to one class.

What people are saying is don’t expect feminism to centre other class issues. Don’t expect feminism to start fighting other class issues. Expect feminism to be about females and to consider the impact of other class issues on females.

Expect to find all the ‘isms in feminist discourse, even sexism. Discuss and engage on the ideas and meanings. Challenge ideas if they negatively affect other class issues (or women as a class).

Don’t start tone policing and for goodness sake don’t start witch hunting and banning people because they said something in a way that you didn’t like, something you found offensive or something that is prejudiced/discriminatory. Engage on the idea, dont witch hunt the person.

Re the Rotherham and Rochdale scandals, when it comes to white middle class men using WOC as prostitutes it's exposed and clearly a violation.

www.independent.co.uk/voices/oxfam-prostitution-charity-aid-workers-haiti-un-peacekeepers-a8206646.html

Where feminism addresses other class issues it is because feminism is about women as a class, it is in the interests of all women, not because feminism is fighting the other isms.

And please can we just stop making everything begin with ‘as a [insert identifier here] I think’?

It undermines the communication of ideas by making issues exclusive right from the very start.

If someone is wrong it’s their argument that is wrong not their identity.

LangCleg - On a related note, does anyone have, or know where I can find, that stupendous thread from LucyLovesLife on Twitter?

Yes I saved the text of that:

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Statement from Working class community workers from Deptford. We are attending the women’s meeting at the House of Commons today. We would like to offer an explanation as to why this is necessary. See below

After many years of working at grass roots within our community we have recently been made aware of an issue that directly effects the working class and women in our area.

You must understand we are not graduate activists or or women’s rights campaigners. We are community workers and our concerns regarding changes to the GRA come from a lifetime of personal experience and having worked with some of the most marginalise people in our area.

The majority of our recent projects have been working with rough sleepers, the homeless and those that have been excluded from society. The issues they face include: unsupported/ mental health illness, sexual violence and prostitution, childhood trauma and abuse...

domestic violence, poverty, ex care system issues, addiction, prison,rehab,homelessness and austerity.

The people in our community that we represent are the most likely to access/ be placed in sex segregated services.Some have and will access all of these services.

Our local political and community organisations have been infiltrated by a group of well meaning white middle class goldsmith (uni) students. These people although well intentioned have rail roaded many vital projects by introducing identity policies and intersectional thinking. They do this without truly understanding or experiencing working class issues.

Meetings we have attended for the purpose of discussing community housing projects and women’s wellness etc have been used as a platform to re educate working class people on the new academic language expected within our organisations.

As anyone from a working class back ground will tell you, these theories and ideologies rarely translate into working class communities.

The extremely small number of transsexual (I use the old term as this has a very different meaning to the university umbrella term currently thrown about) members of the community are and have always been excepted and protected by community organisations.

We are now informed that transgender people are being routinely abused (mis gendered) and should be protected above all other marginalised groups. All that has changed is privileged students have adopted a set of gender identities that allow them to be considered marginalised.

The people we encountered were far from marginalised. In fact they were highly educated, openly classist and aggressive.

This new politics doesn’t equate in our community or for the people we support. We are dealing with working class issues with severely marginalised people and the trans lobby is a gentrification of working class social and political movements. Note the difference between trans lobby and trans people who we support.

No one will discuss our concerns regarding self id. Our local Labour Party has refused to comment or debate with the working class people.

We are attending the meeting this evening as this is only place that is willing to discuss theses issues.

When we are being verbally abused and called fascists because we are concerned about the effects of policy change on marginalised people it is a direct attack on working class women and grass roots organisations.

when sharing information about this event and attempt to shut it down be aware that you are complicit in the silencing of not only women but working class people who have not afforded the privileged of a safe space or university education. Thank you x

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There's also a good interview with Meghan Murphy here (starts about halfway down the page).

Really agree with your post at 11:12 Offred. When people try to tell me that feminism should be expending huge amounts of energy fighting various 'isms I wonder what they're trying to divert me from.

And could I make a plea to keep the cries of 'white middle class woman ' down a bit? It's just another way of dismissing women's points of view.

I don't think 'challenging' and 'calling out' are the same thing but I'm not invested in changing your mind about it birds. It sounds like what you are doing - challenging and examining - is what I would call engagement.

Yes I agree it would be naive to think that engagement will always work but I think trying to engage does have to be a starting point if you want people to understand your perspective and if you want to build solidarity.

There have been a few people on MN that I have reached a point of not wanting to engage with, because they aren't willing to give themselves into that process - their posts have been full of insults and attempted shaming and outright lies. There would be no point in trying to engage with someone coming from those places.

If someone is wrong it’s their argument that is wrong not their identity.

Agreed.

Well I would say that conversely it is necessary to understand why people are wanting these things to be recognised by feminism in the first place.

The rest of the world, almost universally hates you relative to the number of non-socially acceptable classes which you can be identified as.

This is why women with other class issues are so desperately wanting feminism to fight for them in the first place.

But we have to resolve these things together. That’s the whole point.

I understand why it is too much sometimes because the disappointment when ‘even feminists’ get it wrong does not happen in a vacuum but in the context of the above.

To be honest, I don't expect feminists to start fighting racism/xenophobia full-scale as we've got enough on our plate but I don't expect feminists to downplay it or support it either. As women we should listen to marginalised women and include them as we know how it feels to be sidelined. This is why I find recent discussions on threads I won't mention so depressing.

Thank you offred, I have saved that along with the ten rules of misogyny. Brilliant post.

Also yy to "And please can we just stop making everything begin with ‘as a [insert identifier here] I think’?" ( I don't think I said it here? )

Thank you for posting that Pencils.

PencilsInSpace

Thank you so much.

It's the old example; feminists compel a company to achieve gender equality on their board. Race equality campaigners compel them to achieve race equality. They achieve both. Structural and unconscious prejudice means all the men are black and all the women are white. Who's helping the black women?

The black men and anti-racist activists have equal responsibility with feminist activists to pro toe black women. Funny that they are rarely called on this responsibility and indeed there is entrenched sexism and misogyny in anti racist activist groups. Who talks about that?

Pencils that was brilliant and clearly and powerfully summarises experiences I have had with that group of activists.