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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Help me deal with a transgender teen from a feminist perspective please

69 replies

starfishsunrise · 30/05/2018 11:23

I have posted here occasionally under my usual user name.
The name I have now is from the LGBT boards. If anyone has time to pop over and look at my threads on there it will give a bit of background.
I’m hoping those with experience can help me. I know we have some adult transgender posters here.

My 16 year old son came out via a letter around New Year. I was stunned. There was not even the smallest clue. I remain convinced it’s a phase and there has been some internet influences

He then never mentioned it again, I tried once or twice but he wouldn’t really open up. It’s only when I said he need to buy suit for 6 th form that things came forward once again.
He needs to choose a 6th form. The choices are between a girls school and a boys school. The 6th forms are mixed but not very, most stay where they are but slightly more girls go to the boys than the other way.

My son wants to dress as a girl from the start and go to the girls school where he would have to make compromises in his subject choices.
I want him to change gradually, start by feminising his appearance and only change when he leaves for university.
I love him and want him to be happy. I just don’t see dressing as a girl as the answer. He’s very back and white. I used the phrase tiny bit autistic on my other post which unintentionally offended some. It was a shorthand for character traits.

I can’t find the words to express how this all makes me feel and why he doesn’t have to be one thing or another but how there is a spectrum of expression.
I am sure there are people who will be happier in a different body I’m not sure my son is one of them.

Would allowing him to go to a mainly girls school just be playing into this?

OP posts:
SarahCarer · 31/05/2018 10:15

You quoted me there and I am not speaking from a position of ignorance but experience as my posts clearly indicate. Mumsnet, camhs and a full research around what gender really is was what helped me and my dd. Mermaids are pushing a specific agenda which would not have been helpful to my dd.

TammySwansonTwo · 31/05/2018 10:26

Gibberty the last post I saw about this issue was within the last six months, and they were advised their new-vagina would have to be constructed from colon

GibbertyFlibbert · 31/05/2018 10:35

"Gibberty the last post I saw about this issue was within the last six months, and they were advised their new-vagina would have to be constructed from colon"

I depends on both individual anatomy and the experience / training of the surgeon.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 31/05/2018 11:43

GibbertyFlibbert

You said this:

With help, and a medical transition in late teens, you could have a daughter who could do everything without anyone ever guessing her past, treated entirely as a woman because nobody will ever no otherwise. But, if you delay her then you will make her life harder.

And it was a fucking disgraceful thing to say. Trying to emotionally blackmail a parent into medical transition for their child soon because it will make the child's life easier?! So if this parent is a little uneasy about choosing a lifetime of untested medication and treatment for their child they are choosing to make their life harder?!

Kyanite · 31/05/2018 12:00

There are organisations concerned parents can turn to.

Transgender Trend -

www.transgendertrend.com/resources-for-parents/

A community of parents & others concerned about the medicalization of gender-atypical youth and rapid-onset gender dysphoria (ROGD) -

4thwavenow.com/

OldCrone · 31/05/2018 15:01

GibbertyFlibbert
With a good surgeon there is nobody with insufficient donor material. Generally a scrotal graft rather than a penile graft is all that is needed, but there are other alternatives.

I suggest you read this
4thwavenow.com/2017/04/03/the-money-is-flowing-to-suck-people-in-vaginoplasty-the-case-of-jazz-jennings/

TammySwansonTwo · 31/05/2018 15:16

But yeah, interesting that’s the one point you’ve picked out of my post and attempted to dispute. The others are far more concerning, to be honest.

OldCrone · 31/05/2018 15:21

GibbertyFlibbert

With help, and a medical transition in late teens, you could have a daughter who could do everything without anyone ever guessing her past, treated entirely as a woman because nobody will ever no otherwise. But, if you delay her then you will make her life harder.

But they can't do everything without anyone guessing, unless they never have any sexual relationships. It could make this particular part of their life very hard indeed. And they will be sterile.

MinaPaws · 31/05/2018 15:40

I'm a feminist and my view is this: the core responsibility you have is to your teen, to ensure your teen knows you love and accept them for who they are, trust that they know better than anyone else who their true self is, and give them complete freedom and respect to express that self fully. In your shoes I would probably stress that they are a person - a human being. That sex and gender are part of who we are but that no-one, not a woman, man, boy, girl, trans person of any degree should feel they have to align themselves specifically to one sex or gender in order to dress as they please, live as they please, show emotions, pursue interests, study given subjects etc.

The more your teen trusts that they are a person you love, that their clothing and interests, their gender identity and sexual prefernces are part of what make up that person but not their only defining characteristics, the more likely it is they will make the right choices for themself, long term.

starfishsunrise · 31/05/2018 19:35

Thanks Minapaws. That sums up what I am trying to say. It genuinely helps.

OP posts:
amycollins · 01/06/2018 13:56

Hello there,

I know this isn't the most trans friendly part of the internet, but I'll have a go at responding. Im writing this from a position of kindness and neighbourliness rather than any kind of ideological bias. You clearly love your child and want what you perceive what's best for them. I can feel the anguish and panic radiating from your post.

If you don't mind I'll take a few moments to explain my situation in relation to my family. I apologise for the length of this - feel free to skip through.

I'm a transexual woman. I came out at 34, 3 and a bit years ago. Since then I've socially and medically transitioned. I live and work broadly as any other woman.

I knew at the age of about 3 or 4. You say in your post that your child can't know what it is to be a girl, because they aren't one. I understand that completely. I knew I wasn't a girl. But I felt somehow that I was supposed to have been one. It's hard to explain. It felt like I was in the some alternate universe or everything was a bit wrong and only I could see it. I also knew that these were very shameful thoughts. So I kept this yearning secret.

Over the years, I heard my mother and father making jokes about various types of LGBT people. I buried my secret deeper. My gran once said to me when I got a girlfriend "we were so glad you turned out to be normal". I knew that she could never accept me and what I felt.

It was so confusing because there wasn't the language that there is today - I clearly wasn't a girl, but I some how needed to be one. Every fibre of my being ached to be one. I told no one.

To be clear: My parents creating an environment that didn't allow me to be myself in no way diminished my feelings.

I planned to make the change at university. I grew my hair longer as a prelude. When I got there, I had literally no idea what to do or how to go about being a transexual. So I gave up.

I was home from university once and my dad came back from work and started telling us about a colleague that was going to transition. I listened intently, because it was the first time transness had really been spoken about in my family. His tone was part excited, part outraged, part disgusted. His clear view was that he wouldn’t work with “him”. "It was a responsible job and clearly a trans person wasn’t up to it. They need lots of time off and it’s not fair on him and everyone else". It was just a stream of hate. I was shocked that his disgust could trump his empathy. I “knew” he’d never accept what I felt.

I got on with my life. Externally, I was a successful man. I channelled my energies into all the things I was supposed to do. I built a career, acquired all the trappings one is supposed to. I met a woman, that I married and had children with.

Over the years, the feelings ebbed and flowed. Sometimes it was like living near a distant motorway. You could hear the cars in the distance, but it was easy to tune out. Other times it was like being stood in the central reservation: deafeningly loud.

Eventually I was feeling particularly depressed with it all. I had no way out. I wasn't supposed to be living this life. But I was. I left my wife and children. With very little explanation. I am ashamed of how much hurt and suffering I caused her. I think she is still hurting by the way I finished it between us. I 100% own this bad thing that I did, but I wonder if I'd pursued a more authentic life, whether I'd have left this trail of devastation behind me?

I started getting therapy, but couldn't move things forward. The shame was deep. Being transgender was a disgusting thing clearly. I ordered hormones off the internet and started taking them. After three months, I felt the changes coming. My genitals started to shrink and I could feel by breasts starting to grow. I panicked. "How would I hide this?" I thought. I realised that this was not a sane plan. Making changes to my body and trying to keep it a secret was stupid. This was a bad platform to begin from. So I stopped. I'd failed again. I tried to kill myself.

After that I went on a bit of an over-compensation rampage. Bought an expensive car. Fucked around. Generally acted like an alpha prick at work. I even went travelling to the other side of the world to escape it. Turns out "wherever you go, there you are".

After I returned, I committed properly to therapy. I decided that I had to cure myself or find the courage to make the change. I knew that trans people were so contemptible, that I'd probably never have friends or lovers and a proper career was out of the question. Internalised transphobia is a horrible thing.

During therapy, my therapist helped me realise that I've been trying to fight what I was and it wasn't working. There appeared to be no way to change what I was. Denying or suppressing these feelings doesn't change the facts of what I am. I became able to say "I am trans", without self hatred or disgust. It became just a thing. I started to transition.

My work colleagues were universally accepting. I received 200+ messages of support. I developed new friendships, free from the dark secret and the chasm between us. I could just be me. Unfortunately, my father had been so anti trans, that I cut contact with him completely. I knew he would be an impediment to what I needed to achieve. I did meet him to tell him before I went full time. He was very upset. He said to others in my family "He's barking up the wrong tree. I never saw any signs of femininity when he was a boy". I think he was assuming I was a confused gay man. Either way, while he couldn't accept that his narrative of my life was less important than my own, he couldn't be in my life. I thought he was lost to me forever. Two weeks before my lower surgery, he reached out and we began a dialogue. We have since rebuilt much of what we had. He refers to me as his daughter now. It is joyous to be accepted. For the record, I do not deny that I was his son for all those years, I'm not trying to 'retcon' my old life away, but he accepts me an my life for what it is.

Am I a woman? I think so. I think that there are many constructs in our society that transcend biological purity. I suspect that many people here will say that I am not. Honesty, ideology is not hugely important to 99% of my life. I live my life with broad acceptance. People call me she/her. I am treated with respect in the workplace. I use the facilities that make sense for me without harassment or fear. My children see me as a woman. My friends see me as a woman. My partner sees me as a woman. My ex is a friend and good co-parent. My life is to all intents and purposes where it needs to be. People with different ideology can be good kind neighbours to each other. I just want to get on with my life.

Maybe your child isn’t what I am; maybe it is just a phase.

Regardless of whether it is a phase: By denying their experience and narrative, you’re not going to make them stop feeling what they’re feeling. In fact you’re more likely to force them underground and into the arms of the people that you are most concerned about.

My advice… For what it’s worth to you:

  1. Tell them that you love them no matter how they choose to live their life. Be open. Tell them that you struggle to understand the trans experience, but that won’t change your love for them.
  2. Tell them that you respect their agency. Acknowledge that it’s their life to live and that you will accept any decision that they make.
  3. Suggest that it’s totally ok to explore; But that there’s no need to commit to a train of thought. There’s lots of versions of gender variance and this journey can take years to unpick. Let them know that if they choose to explore it and decide that it’s not sitting right that there’s no shame in putting it away for a while. Likewise if they do pause, it’s ok to resume later. It’s all ok.
  4. Talk about personal safety. LGBT people and especially gender variant people are at an increased risk of physical violence. Ensure that you do this not as a silly threat “if you dress as a girl, you will get murdered”, but use much of the education you would to with a teenage girl about rape and dark streets, being in social situations alone.
  5. This might be a step too far for you, but if they want to explore helping them in that endeavour might be a way of understanding together where the edges of this thing lay and creating a safe space to do so that doesn’t involve putting themselves in some unsafe situation. If they meet some stranger on the internet that offers to help them, then you loose input and cannot ensure your child's safety. What would be the harm in taking them to Primark and helping pick out £25 worth of clothes? If they want to try another name sometimes better to let it happen in your home than in a secret underground life. Create an outlet for all this.
  6. Help them to build a great life outside of their gender variance. I say this not because the feelings will go away, but because it’s a hard situation and having a life bigger that one thing creates momentum and structure. I am a trans woman. Than is no longer my defining thing. I run. I have a career. I love sailing. My kids are a huge part of my life. Not building a life and focussing solely on the gender stuff means that they are more likely to find it harder to get past this and move on. I see many trans people that forget that the point of transition is to go from one state to another rather than live it forever. Conversely if it is a phase, building a wide portfolio of interests is a way of adding balance. I suggest you do this under the framework of “ok so if you want to be a woman… what sort of woman do you want to be? How do you want to spend your time?” rather than “hey come do this thing instead of doing that trans thing”.
  7. If they do decide to life their life the way you fear, be the great mother you clearly are and teach your child how to live as a woman (even if you believe they are not really one). This is a time to use your feminism to ensure that their transition is built on the bedrock of feminist principles rather than misogynic ones. I’d probably leave the whole trans women are women / trans women are men debate until you can safely discuss your different views with less personal perspective.

I get that as a gender critical feminist you have ideological objections to all of this. That’s fine, I’m not trying to control your thoughts. But honestly when it comes to my kids, I’ll sacrifice whatever on paper principles I have for this happiness. I want to be a part of their lives and want to participate in their story however it unfolds. I am not the star of their show.

I would be happy to have a chat with you if you’d like to.

Amy

P.S. I'm happy to discuss this point of view with anyone, but if you use slurs (tim, transwoman, etc) or misgender me, I'm just going to ignore your post. I believe we can share this world and debate things respectfully and kindly.

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 01/06/2018 14:22

When did transwomen become a slur?

Thats not directed at amy obviously

AssassinatedBeauty · 01/06/2018 14:27

@amycollins what does "living as a woman mean"?

amycollins · 01/06/2018 14:44

trans women = a type of women
transwomen = not a type of women

Pratchet · 01/06/2018 14:52

Transgender woman is a transman

AssassinatedBeauty · 01/06/2018 15:04

Fairly hard to "debate things respectfully" when part of the terms of your debate involves accepting your premise as part of the definition of words.

OldCrone · 01/06/2018 15:08

I thought a transsexual woman meant a woman who is transsexual, ie someone born female who has modified their body to appear male. amycollins appears to be using it in the opposite sense. It would be useful to have terminology which makes the meaning clearer. Trans identified male and trans identified female are clearer, I think.

AnchorMum · 01/06/2018 15:51

Starfish sunrise
My heart goes out to you, from one Mum to another. Thanks

I can understand the shock and worry you're feeling and the difficulty in knowing what to do for the best for your son. It's like being thrown into a parallel universe.

I speak from experience as I also have a child that came out as trans very suddenly, with no previous signs.

My child is a young adult so a little older than yours, but you are starting to head towards a time when your child will have autonomy over his own body and actions. Time really is of the essence here - not to necessarily prevent him from following this path if it is truly right for him, but to provide safeguards and protections by giving him and you the space to consider what is going on and to work through every issue he has around this.

I completely agree about the role that the internet and sites
such as Tumblr play.

There are many reasons teenagers and young people are drawn to being trans. One thing is certain though, not all feel the need to medically transition.

Unfortunately my daughter does, and she is well on the road to surgery and hormones having received an official diagnosis of Gender Dysphoria via the NHS.

It has only been12 months since she came out as non binary - and 9 months since she decided to see the GP and ask to see a gender specialist for hormones and surgery.

She received her official diagnosis in February. We are stunned at the speed with which this has happened.

I will repeat the fact that she was NOT a gender non-conforming child. In fact at 18 (shortly after coming out as a lesbian) told me she was so happy to identify with the sex into which she was born - this was the first time I had heard the word 'cis'. This, and the background and context to her coming out as trans, makes me truly believe that she is using this as a way to cope with some very difficult and challenging things that happened in the 3 or 4 years prior to this.

She is, however, completely convinced, and convincing, about her dysphoria and need to transition.

She refuses to engage in any discussion about what she's doing if it is not in total agreement with her views - and we were estranged for a while because of this. Now she will communicate with us in a very limited way, but she is extremely guarded. She has changed her name and blocked us from her social media.

I would hate anyone else to get to this position in their relationship with their child. However, I would say that if it can happen to us it can happen to any family as we were all extremely close before she decided she was trans.

You are fortunate in that your child still lives at home. That means there is space and time to talk and that you will, rightly, still have some influence over his decisions.

I don't know what to think about the school choice - that's very hard. You could perhaps ring both schools and talk to them about the issue and see what their policies are and what they suggest?

If you feel like talking some more, please feel free to PM me if you want to. Thinking of you.

Pratchet · 01/06/2018 16:37

I agree with you crone. If in doubt take the adjective away, that's my rule

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