It's Serious

[Terfulike]

It has occurred to me tonight that the situation is genuinely serious.

I am/was a bit naive.

This post is about that it's really gone beyond stomping, laughing, giggling,

It's serious.

Kids are being operated upon.

For liking pink.

Kids are being poisoned with hormones.

For getting embarrassed about their growing breasts.

This is a call to... I don't know

A call to harms

My name is Georgina Toye

And I denounce this trans shit.

I thank

1 Magdalena berns

2 miranda Yardley

3 mumsnet feminist chat

4 my dad

Love and peace

Yes of course it's scary that people can't out themselves. But the reasons have been discussed over many threads. You already know this.

No I didn't actually realise that this was a secret society no.

Anyway no one has to name themselves. I am though. Stop telling me not to.

Up to you. Your choice.

Don’t ask women to out themselves on this thread. It’s extremely dangerous is every conceivable way.

Were you on the last night OP?

Asking women to pst their names is foolish and dangerous. And I don't think MN allows it either

It’s a chat board. Seems like a reasonable post.

Yeah, it is serious - am also finding less giggle mileage in laughing at stupid gender activist stuff online, because it’s harming us. Not the words as such; the ideology they represent and the things people do in the real world as a result.

I don’t like being anonymous either. I do some limited gender criticalling under my real name, but unfortunately I can readily envisage getting the sack for hurting people’s feelings (I’m a contractor in a very ‘woke’ work environment). And then there’s the personal safety concerns - we have an as yet unconfirmed but apparently unprovoked assault on a GC vlogger in Edinburgh this week, and someone convicted of assaulting another GC woman last month.

I’m going to be cowardly and secretive here because it’s what I need to do to keep employed and safe.

It is serious and I don't like having to walk on egg shells.

It's a horrible feeling when you are silenced in groups that you used to enjoy posting in...I wasn't allowed to post about where the money was coming from or concerns of Psychologists regarding children. Nope, stick to the Party line, no delving deeper allowed. Accept everything at face value or else.

This thread was referenced in James Kirkup's article 'Fear & Loathing Grips the Gender Debate'
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3204901-ffs-flagged-at-work-for-gender-critical-views

(extract)
"Other stories in this area involve women who speak out using their own names getting abusive messages at home and at work. In both the public and private sectors, being accused of transphobic bigotry is no small matter, and even many people who know they are doing nothing more than asking questions about an issue of public interest feel reluctant to risk being tarnished with such accusations, no matter how baseless they may be. (For real-world examples of this, see Mumsnet: this thread is just the latest to pop up while I was writing this. There are too many others.)"
blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/03/fear-and-loathing-grips-the-gender-debate/

Yes I'm afraid I was Puuurfect.

I apologise wholeheartedly for any offence I caused. I certainly wouldn't want any harm to come to anyone.

I was completely unaware that people's careers are at stake, but have just been reading about Rebecca RC. I've only been aware a few weeks, and although I know some things I have large areas of ignorance.

I do think though, that if those of us who feel able to do so go public that that is a good thing. I've not much to lose career wise. I'll just have to wait for them to turn up with their barbed wire encased baseball bats.

Posters discuss other topics on this forum and so may wish to remain anonymous. I don't think it's particularly nice to suddenly decide that you are OK in outing yourself and then assume that everybody else should do the same.

I can see that if you truly believed kids were being operated on simply for liking pink you would indeed think this was very serious. Anybody would.

I mean they aren't, actually.

So if that's the basis of your outrage, perhaps you might want to look into that a bit more. It might not be quite what you think.

...in fact it's so concerning to me that you might actually believe that rather than simply sensationalising you position that I want to say it again:

Kids are not being operated on for the mere fact of liking pink

Kids are not being prescribed hormones for the bare feeling of embarrassment

Maybe have a bit more humility in the face of our country's leading medical professionals in the field; if it seems nonsensical that specialist doctors would be operating on children for such spurious reasons, and that this would be upheld by the legal infrastructure of our first world nation and under the jurisdiction of the European Court of Human Rights, well if it seems nonsensical it probably is nonsense.

Rat, can I ask if you, or anyone else, have data on kids (as in under 18) who have changed gender, use puberty blockers, use hormones offset against all kids. And then across the laat decade or so. Just curious what the growth is and how concerned we need to be.

Leaving surgery out of the list as I don't think that happens?

Still against giving kids any medications though and would prefer counseling first. I know people thinks this is wrong but I believe if not done, chances of kids learning to live with themselves are pretty slim and the drive to keep changing and feeling unhappy doesn't go away with just medicating it.

Anyway, interested in actual statistics if anyone knows?

Link to Dr Polly Carmichael's lecture to the Association for Child and Adolescent Mental Health. She discusses the 'evidence base, dilemmas and debate'.
Dr Carmichael is head of Gender Identity Development Service (GIDS) of the Tavistock and Portman Trust, which is the NHS centre of excellence for helping children and adolescents with gender dsyphoria and other issues of gender-variance.

soundcloud.com/user-664361280/dr-polly-carmichael-developments-and-dilemmas

LOL Terfulike. No need to apologise, you are not the first or last to post when a bit pissed. Have done it myself too.

But yes, it's pretty fraught out there. TRAs are gunning for women who speak out, or even speak between themselves, about this subject. Even attending the public meetings is stressful and frightening, because there are masked protesters chanting and jeering at you, taking pics etc. I'm self employed so they can't get me sacked, but there certainly have been attempts to do so with women who speak about it

Link to long interview with Stephanie Davies Arai

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3258165-stephanie-davies-arai-transgender-trend

Guardian article identifying some of the differences between Mermaids & Transgender Trend:
www.theguardian.com/education/2018/may/15/transgender-row-teachers-afraid-challenge-breast-binding

Hey sanluca, wish I had a bit more time on my hands to hit Google and find some actual stats, but unfortunately now is not my moment! What I will tell you is the broad strokes though, as I understand them. That might help when you go looking for stats.

So the number of kids referred to gender clinics has risen very much as far as I know. That says nothing of what treatment they receive there of course, simply that their doctor has recognised that they are presenting in such a way that warrants the attention of a specialist. I don't think that's sinister personally, and perhaps there are stats on how many children simply walk away from those clinics with their situations resolved with no actual intervention, I don't know.

Undoubtedly the use of puberty blockers/cross sex hormones will have increased in the last decade because . In years gone by the number of people who fully transitioned in their lifetime will not have all received blockers or hormones when surely it would have been a benefit to them, given that they did eventually transition.

So the only real stats that would have any value I suppose would be how many children have actually received treatment that has not gone on to be beneficial in terms of a full transition. And of those how many have suffered any actual negative effects of that treatment.

Like you say it may be the case that once started on treatment there is an incentive to carry on to full transition - so the numbers of those fully transitioning today vs. in the past would be useful, to see if that number is stable. Also feedback from those who have completely transitioned as to what impact that had on their decision and if they remain happy with it.

Finally the stats on how many did not receive treatment at a young age who feel that negatively affected their future if they then went on to transition.

If you have all three of these we might have a clearer view on whether or not our doctors are doing a decent job!

James Kirkup referred to the lecture by Polly Carmichael in his article
blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/05/why-are-some-mps-trying-to-shut-down-the-transgender-debate/

(extract)
"In 2009/10, the GIDS had 97 children referred, of whom 40 were listed as “assigned female at birth.” In 2016/17, the GIDS had 2016 children referred, of whom 1400 were assigned female at birth. The total caseload for the service rose 2,078 per cent in seven years. The number of assigned females being referred rose 3,500 per cent in seven years. Why have the numbers risen in this way? Is there a clear and undisputed explanation, which would render Lord Tebbit’s suggested research into causation redundant?

This is an issue addressed by Dr Polly Carmichael, who runs the GIDS, in a recent talk to the Association for Child and Adolescent Mental Health. In her thoughtful hour-long lecture, she said this:

“The rapid rise in the number of assigned females…. exemplifies the importance of keeping discourse open and allowing different voices to be heard.

“You might say the increase in the numbers of assigned females coming forward is [because] that it’s easier for females to talk about their gender-diverse feelings so what we are seeing is an increase in awareness getting towards a better representation of the true prevalence of this among females.

“A converse explanation, a question: are there issues for young women around how they perceive their gender? There has been a worry by some that people who would previously have had an outcome around sexuality are now having an outcome around gender.”

I find your post so naive Rat. Frighteningly so.

I'm not saying there aren't massive failings possible gender - that truly would be naive - and I assure you I'm not that. What I am is a realist. Because equally it's a bit tin-foil-hatty to paint the whole thing notion of medical help for transgender children as an unforgivable abomination. I mean there has to be a middle ground, don't you think?

There may be failings, and undoubtedly there will be successes too.

I have yet to see any GC poster on here ever say that sometimes a doctor will know what they're doing in the best interests of their patient and that puberty blockers or cross-sex hormones will have greatly improved the quality of life for the person involved.

It would indeed be naive to suggest there was no possible avenue for concern. And when people suggest there is no possible avenue for benefit, what would you call that? Some would call it gross demonisation and scaremongering.

Growing up female, he’d always preferred to wear boys’ clothes and play the male character in online games; at secondary school, after he cut his hair short, many teachers assumed he was a boy. It was seeing a trans character on Hollyoaks and then reading blogs by young trans people on Tumblr that made him realise he could be transgender

Guardian extract.

That could have been me as a girl except for two things - no Hollyoaks, no Tumblr - in fact no internet. I'm pretty ancient.

I grew up to be heterosexual, long-time married, mother and grandmother.

Wonder how many older women are just like me and did not have the "advantages" of the internet to convince them they were the wrong sex (I refuse to say gender as it is totally meaningless salad speak for stereotype).

Oh you were drunk!
I was wondering what the "stomping laughing giggling" was about, I was awake till 3 but decided you were a TRA gathering targets.

I mean there has to be a middle ground, don't you think?

This echoes Polly Carchicael's position I think, which she and then Kirkup expand.
(extract from the Spectator article above)

Polly Carmichael “Gender has become amazingly topical and we have to be really careful not to assume that anyone is exploring or questioning their gender is going to want to change their bodies in line with that. The extremes on either side are not helpful. We need to look at the grey areas in between. To do that we need to be able to talk and discuss these issues. All too often stakeholders become lobby groups.”

She did not name any stakeholder. But her words might be relevant to a charity called Mermaids. Mermaids is a charity that describes itself as “a support group for children and young people with gender dysphoria and their families”. Its CEO, Susie Green describes herself as “parent to a daughter who was born male.” Mermaids is a relatively small charity (it had income of £127,000 in the year to March 2017) with a big reach. It has prominent backers and its advice and recommendations have been absorbed and adopted by many public bodies."

Rat
Maybe have a bit more humility in the face of our country's leading medical professionals in the field;

I wasn't specifically talking about this country. The states seems most worrying.
Obviously certain people take their kids abroad from the UK.

A lot of stories that get told by parents seem to involve the child liking feminine dress and toys "liking pink", and then getting taken to psychologists at age 4 who then confirm they're trans. They live as a girl till 10 when they've been called a girl for several years by now. They get put on puberty blockers which, as we know, almost inevitably lead to cross sex hormones at 16. Surgery at 18. And it all seems to me to stem from their liking for feminine things at age 3. The trans juggernaut from 3 to 18. I'd been watching I am Jazz and it horrified me. Mainly the psychologist I think. I may be wrong but it seemed less regulated over there. I've no criticism of the Tavistock although I'm not very knowledgeable about it.

The suddenly rise in referrals is very worrying and it's mostly girls.