Please change my mind : trans

[lurker33]

I've been lurking in the feminist boards for a while now, watching the discussions on trans. I am generally a live and let live kind of person, as long as it's not affecting anyone else adversely. Unfortunately I am coming to the conclusion that transgenderism is not a good thing; mainly because it appears to be reinforcing gender stereotypes. Why can't we have boys that like traditionally girls things and girls that like traditionally boys things?

Recently I was at an event where there were people who were talking about their experiences in a technical, male dominated area. 5 speakers were billed, two of which were women. Oh, well done organisers of said event I thought, for providing a well balanced panel of speakers, including two women who I could hold up as role models to my 8 yo daughter who had attended with me.

On further reading it transpired that one of the women billed was actually a transwoman.

How can I hold up a transwoman as a role model for my daughter, especially one who has transitioned late in life? My daughter won't have the same opportunities that a boy growing up will have, won't have to put up with the casual sexism us women all have to deal with, and quite frankly my daughter has nothing at all in common with this speaker.

It made me quite angry, which surprised me, and it dawned on me that calling transwoman a woman is actually an insult to women. I'll get flamed for this I'm sure but I can see a similarity to blackface where it's insulting for a white person to pretend to be black as white people are opressors of black people. It's insulting for a man to say he is a woman when men are opressors of women.

I do acknowledge the transwoman's struggle to be accepted for who they are, but that struggle has nothing in common with the struggle that women go though every day. Transwomen should be free to live their lives as they see fit but please don't think they have anything in common with women other than being part of the human race.

Transwomen are transwomen and are of the male sex, women are women and are of the female sex. There is nothing wrong with excluding people from a group if they don't have any attributes of that group. If you are insulted by scientific fact then perhaps you need to think again.

I am not sure what I am asking really. My female socialisation means that I feel slightly dirty for having come to this conclusion. If there are any transphilic people out there, I am happy to have my mind changed if you provide me with some coherent arguments as to why I shouldn't feel this way.

I asked you for your opinion SG. Is Alex a woman?

He has said toilets and changing rooms should be mixed sex, and describes himself as a transactivist. Is it that much of a leap to think he may be positioning himself to take women’s political spaces too?!

Besides, you didn’t answer. Is Eddie Izzard a woman?

If only Alex would "queer gender" by "broadening the bandwidth" of what it is to be male. Now that would really be ground-breaking.

He doesn't say anywhere he is trying to infiltrate women's spaces.

He has a whole section in his memoirs, detailing his jaunt into female toilets and overcoming the great scourge of society that is 13 year old girls discomfort of adult males in their space. He might not be actively campaigning for it (yet) but he clearly has no compunction about doing it when he sees fit.

SMG is a sea lion extraordinaire.

"He has a whole section in his memoirs, detailing his jaunt into female toilets and overcoming the great scourge of society that is 13 year old girls discomfort of adult males in their space."

That, presumably, is Izzard (just in case my cross post with Dick makes it look like Dick is saying that about Alex D.)

Ah, yes sorry. Was SMG comment in relation to AD? My mistake.

Since super used the WHO to define gender identity, here is the WHO's most recent definitions I've found:

Sex: The different biological and physiological characteristics of males and females, such as reproductive organs, chromosomes, hormones, etc.

Gender: Refers to the socially constructed characteristics of women and men – such as norms, roles and relationships of and between groups of women and men. It varies from society to society and can be changed. The concept of gender includes five important elements: relational, hierarchical, historical, contextual and institutional. While most people are born either male or female, they are taught appropriate norms and behaviours – including how they should interact with others of the same or opposite sex within households, communities and work places. When individuals or groups do not “fit” established gender norms they often face stigma, discriminatory practices or social exclusion – all of which adversely affect health.

They've used it on their website and various writings for years. One of the most thorough ones on it is WHO, Gender mainstreaming for health managers: a practical approach, 2011. This document has also has definitions for gender analysis, gender analysis in health, gender divisions in labour, gender blind, gender equality, gender equality in health, gender equity, gender equity in health, gender norms, gender relations, gender responsive, gender roles, gender sensitive, gender specific, gender stereotypes, gender transformative, gender unequal, and gender-based discrimination among others.

It does not have gender identity, possibly because with their definition of gender it would be obvious that absolutely no concept of ' deeply felt and experienced sense' fits into something socially taught. As all identities are socially taught and maintained, the reliance on innate or feelings makes it stand at odds against decades of research of how identities and self concepts form.

Also transition alone is not evidence based treatment, in fact hormonal and/or surgery without other therapies is shown to have a detrimental result on the well-being of dysphoric people and there are plenty of us who do not transition. As GIRES' data shows - a pro-trans, pro-self ID group, of the estimated dysphoric population, only 20% seek any medical treatment specifically for gender dysphoria and not all of want to transition or are able to transition, (of those who have a history of trauma, trauma care really must be firmly in place first and that can take years. Transitioning without doing that leads to terrible results for people's wellbeing). Transitioning has a lot of risks, physical and mental which is why until recently it was common practice that only the most severe would transition due to the drawbacks of doing so. That now public and medical spaces that have tried to discuss alternative modes of care for those with gender dysphoria are closed down has made it a struggle for some of us to improve care, but it's still disrespectful to give out the false idea transitioning is the only evidence based treatment when we have far more evidence that doing so can put lives at risk.

Also, many trans and other dysphoric people along with others have fought for 3rd unisex space for years, it doesn't by their nature out us at all. Anyone can use a unisex space - that's the entire point. Don't tell me that they don't protect vulnerable people, they allows people like me who have been questioned and attacked in public over what others' think my sex is more ability to feel more safe in public. Not all of us can muscle in as we please and just expect others to play nice.

Good post DN4.

I don't think anyone is describing it as an essence Fermat - it's a core element of identity. Not some mysterious type of soul. It's difficult to objectively describe any elements of human identity - because it is really asking 'what does it mean to be human?' and I don't think anyone can answer that.

However, in a civilized society, all that matters are the practical consequences. We should be able to find some sort of compromise position that enables gender dysphoric individuals to lead dignified, safe, secure and valued lives without encroaching on the few spaces which need to be single sex (and most of the time, 99% of the time, it doesn't matter - human beings are just human beings).

I agree. 99% of the time it doesn't matter. Toilets don't really matter because you don't see other people in there and transitioned trans people have been using them for decades without issues. Changing rooms should be on a genital basis if it is an open area, or gender neutral private units. Prisons - are already on a GRA/ medical transition basis and that is not likely to change (except in US, no doubt some will thank Trump for that). At refuges individuals are risk assessed on an individual basis. Managers of women's refuges already use their discretion and will probably continue to do so regardless of the law - we've seen Women's Aid have already begun a review.

So yes practical consequences, and the practical consequences of all the options on all people in different situations have to be taken into account.

Forcing (transitioned) trans women to use the same facilities as men, or forcing them to out themselves by using some sort of '3rd' space (segregation) is impinging on the rights of women - trans women. That is not protecting vulnerable people.

But if segregation is by sex, what right is being impinged on? We have sex segregation for a reason... Don't we? If we don't segregate by sex, then why have men's and women's toilets, changing areas etc at all? As a woman I don't count myself as vulnerable, but you can't discount the fact that there are vulnerable women and girls. Do trans people count as more vulnerable? Why should vulnerable women and girls share with a person of the opposite sex in a sex segregated space when a third space for trans would provide the same protection?

What do you think about Alex SG, is she trans?

She identifies as trans - but she doesn't state she is female or a woman. She is clearly playing with the whole idea of gender, queerness and non-conformity.

Does she get to stand as a Labour party woman's officer?

I have no idea you'd have to ask Labour. Would she even want to?

This is where I step away now Eresh when you start throwing insults at me.

Is Eddie Izzard a woman?

Is pip bunce a woman?

Is Alex SG a woman?

If not, why not?

We have decades of research on identities - how they form, maintain themselves, change... - and while there are multiple ways people attempt to explain their meaning to humans which I agree is rather philosophical, the concept of identity isn't that hard to define as it has been in psychology and sociology for decades: Identity is social, it's that which we either apply to ourselves to represent ourselves to others or that others apply to us. While in maths and such it is unchanging (as early philosophers treated identities in such a way), in how others see us and how we represent ourselves, is constantly in flux. No matter my traits, how others see me or how I portray myself changes.

Can you explain why you keep posting exclusively about transitioned transsexuals as though they are the only group described by the term ‘transgender’?

Can you explain what you mean by ‘transitioned’? From what to what?

What does a transition involve?

Alex says she's widening the bandwidith of womanhood. He most definitely does claim to be a woman. You refuse to acknowledge these people because they make trans people look batshit insane.

Hi OP, you will get a pretty one sided view on here. I suggest you have a chat with a few trans women in RL before resolving that 'transgenderism isn't a good thing'

"I suggest you have a chat with a few trans women in RL before resolving that 'transgenderism isn't a good thing'"

Ask them what characteristics they possess that makes them think they are women if you do, OP.

The posters on these boards who call themselves 'trans women' really struggle to answer that question.

Way to demonstrate you didn't bother reading the thread, daimbars.

Why don't you help her out daimbars? She wants a coherent argument. Isn't it a bit out of order for her to go and befriend a trans person just so she can tell them they don't exist?

"A natal male can have a female gender identity."

Of course he can't.
He can claim he does, but it will not be true.

Because he won't be able to explain, define, or evidence his assertion.

For that matter, I'm actually objectively female, and I don't have a 'female gender identity' because having a particular chromosome type and reproductive system isn't a 'gender' is it?

What he means, is that he is an unequivocally biologically male person who has a particular personality type that he very very very much wants to be attached to the word 'female' even if contriving that false association is a huge hairy bollocking exercise in rampant sexism that harms actual women.

Seriously, men who can't define their terms just can't be taken seriously by me.

Women are female.
Adult female humans are women.
Females are the opposite sex to males.
Humans can't change sex.
Brains and personalities have nothing to do with these truths.

The only thing women and 'transwomen' collectively have in common are three consonants and two vowels arranged in a particular order.

suggest you have a chat with a few trans women in RL before resolving that 'transgenderism isn't a good thing'

Lol, can you suggest any? Shon Faye? Danielle Muscato? Lily Madigan? Jane Fae?