Lesbian gets banned from LGBTQ+ messaged board for trying to talk about the lesbophobia in trans activism

[LostLesbian380]

www.reddit.com/r/ainbow/comments/8m6o53/its_time_to_talk_about_terf/

In case they delete it, this is the body of the original post:

Hey LGBTQ+ friends,

I'm sure many of you have heard the term "TERF," and assume that it means "someone who hates trans people." That's what I thought until a couple of weeks ago, when I got called a TERF for being homosexual rather than homogenderal. I am a lesbian and the way my sexual orientation functions is toward female people only. Transgender women are valid, but they unfortunately have a mix of male and female sex characteristics, and for me, I am only sexually attracted to female sex characteristics. Growing up, I tried very hard to be bisexual; I didn't want to be gay, I wanted to have a husband and a normal life, and realizing that I physically could not experience attraction to male people was very difficult for me to accept. I finally came to terms with it- but unfortunately now, I am experiencing a lot of homophobia from the unlikeliest of places: within LGBTQ+ itself, specifically, the QT.

Which is why I want to have a conversation with y'all. I am a supporter of trans rights; I have signed up to volunteer in a name change clinic in law school, took a Transgender Studies class in undergrad, have many transgender friends, and overall support trans people having full civil rights. I also support trans people being treated with MUCH more dignity and respect than is standard in today's society. I want to be an ally to trans people, and I do still consider myself an ally to trans people in general- but what I have an issue with is the TRA (trans rights activism) movement, which seems to have gone off the rails. One of the TRA movement's primary tactics is using the term "TERF" to shut down intellectual discourse. Over the past several weeks, it has become clear to me that people who do consider trans women to be women are being called a TERF, at ever-increasing rates. These are just a few of the reasons I've seen female people get called a "TERF" by TRAs:

-Saying there are objective physical differences between trans women and biological women (which does not invalidate anyone's identity btw)

-Being a lesbian (exclusive homosexual attraction)

-Acknowledging male and female socialization as distinct experiences (even if a trans woman's childhood doesn't resemble "boyhood" it is not "girlhood;' it is something else entirely that is totally valid and deserving of respect and compassion)

-Being uncomfortable with penises and penis-talk in lesbian communities

-Being uninterested in dating someone with both male & female sex characteristics

-Talking about biological female experiences and anatomy

-Expressing any hesitancy about self-ID/worries that biological men will take advantage of it

So it's time to have a conversation. When ya'll talk about "punching TERFs" or other violence towards "TERFs," you are talking about people like me- an ally to trans people who wants to remain an ally, but is feeling incredibly alienated by the TRA movement which seeks to erase my sexuality by saying lesbians can be attracted to both sexes. Ls and Gs probably have a deeper innate understanding of why this is so painful for a homosexual person to hear. I am hoping to have a productive conversation with LGBTQ+ people on this subreddit to discuss this issue, and I ask that everyone approach the topic with empathy, care, and respect.

The lesbian who made this post got attacked, belittled, demeaned, and banned within an hour.

What interests me is that is page 3 of a feminist chat thread on a trans issue and the usual lurking tran allies haven’t turned up to call us all bigots yet.

I noticed that over the last 24 hours FWR discussions have seemed more 'civil'.

It's the Bank Holiday and Pride was on in Birmingham.

I'd say a lot of the trans community and their handmaidens are out of their trees celebrating.

Normal service will probably resume on Tuesday. 😞

What interests me is that is page 3 of a feminist chat thread on a trans issue and the usual lurking tran allies haven’t turned up to call us all bigots yet.

I have a far more cynical view of this. When there's talk on here of lesbians getting a shitty deal from trans ideology trans allies will often pop up saying "where?", "I've never seen this", "such a transphobic thing to claim". When there's one of these actual living breathing lesbians on here, the idea of engaging with the discussion for some reason becomes pretty unappealing.

Yes nauticant. I imagine you’re right. It’s why it is so important to get stuff like this out there into the wider conversation. So many trans allies refuse to see that it IS happening.

Ooh I’m feeling quite heart-warmed by seeing the development of this thread - glad you found MN, LostLesbian, and isn’t it encouraging to hear that word is getting out further afield that this a place where women “can still talk”.

Although still horrifying how that is even a concept we have to think about. Who could have imagined that this would be the case in the western world in 2018.

Anyway, speaking as a straight ally, Up the Lesbians!

"Also don't care if you or any other lesbian cares to fuck me, long as you aren't a massive transphobic dick about it."

It is a truth that should be universally acknowledged that women everywhere wish that men would keep the notes from their boner in their pocket.
I am sorry they did that to you.

@Kyanite - it hasn't been my experience that gay men uncritically accept trans ideology. Back before I was GC I was surprised to hear gay male friends slightly mocking trans people. I expected them all to be on the same side. Now I think my friends were ahead of me. Perhaps they'd just been forced to think about it a bit more because of happening to fall under the LGBT umbrella. Perhaps, for the same reason, they felt empowered to comment.

Irritatingly on Guardian comment is free once I was mansplained to at length by a righteous gay guy about how women should welcome TIMs into all our spaces. Then caught him with another guy on a different set of comments slagging off non binary people because they were appropriating LGBT issues. Arse.

"I heard about this place as one of the only places women can still talk and so I came here."

Hi lostlesbien I am glad you found us. When I read the opening post I hoped you would. I even figured all the negative publicity around mumsnet from TRAs might guide you in!

The post seemed well-written, clear and fair. I'm not at all surprised lostlesbian was banned for it.

It's same on PinkNews where whenever an article is to do with Trans issues, comments are disabled. Because historically when they're not there are a tonne of LGB comments that don't accept the TRA narrative.

LGB are an increasingly bad fit with T and it's something that has been semi-acknowledged going back as far as I remember. L and G are sexual orientations. B more or less is (though B in my experience are better described as "straight but flexible" most of the time.) T is not at all a sexual orientation. It's either gender dysphoria (nothing to do with sexual desire) or autogynephillia (a fetish).

TRAs have pulled a coup with groups like Stonewall, Pink News and other communities. Straight out of the communist playbook, really - get in to the top positions, support each other fanatically and drive out the outsiders. I had a great example of TRAs doing this with Wikipedia but sadly deleted the images / records by mistake.

Gay men aren't on board with trans ideology if you go by the online gay community Datalounge. I've got a new phone and can't link atm, but if you search Datalounge trans you'll get a load of threads.

They are very outspoken and often very funny with it. They are aware that other forums don't allow such free discussion, but TRAs can't get traction there. Gay men on Datalounge reject accusations of transphobia pretty vehemently.

but TRAs can't get traction there.

Daft question maybe but why not? Is it down to women being easier to shout at? :/

Daft question maybe but why not? Is it down to women being easier to shout at? :/

Partly, also they don't open themselves up for debate or negotiation. They spend little time justifying why they have written something - they don't care if anyone disagrees.

But mainly it's because most TRA don't need or want anything from gay men.

TRAs can't get traction here either, largely because MN is moderated, and moderated by people who are not TRAs or allies. All over the internet people (mostly women) are being silenced. The Datalounge posters are safe to say what they want (and they're far ruder than here) but I saw plenty of comments about how other sites that were their natural home - Pink News, for example - now prioritize TIM over them and delete their GC comments. Gay men regret the loss of gay and lesbian publications and forums. They also regret the addition of T to the LGB, which is at the root of some of the problems.

I think it would serve lesbians well if they just laughed at claims that they should have sex with TIM. But that ignores the fact that in real life TIM pose a potential serious physical threat to them. I have no problem flatly rejecting the idea that I should feel compelled to date or have sex with a TIF but then TIF pose no physical threat to me.

I do think lesbians would do well banding together to make the point that they refuse sex with all males, making a big song and dance over the trans lobby's homophobia. Not sure how they could do that, though. Because if I rejected a TIF no one I know would think that unreasonable, whereas in the LGBTQ alphabet soup lesbians get it in the neck for what's called transphobia. This displays the ugly truth of where lesbians stand in the LGBT pecking order, even in places where they should feel supported.

Welcome to MN from one lesbian to another, Lost! I'm glad you found your way here.

Blythe, I used to be a regular on the boards you're talking about. I visited again recently & was pleasantly surprised to see they hadn't been swallowed by the TRAs.

Sadly Diva magazine looks like a lost cause. Last time I picked a copy of that up, I saw a fawning interview with SG of Mermaids & put it straight down again .