Lesbian gets banned from LGBTQ+ messaged board for trying to talk about the lesbophobia in trans activism

[LostLesbian380]

www.reddit.com/r/ainbow/comments/8m6o53/its_time_to_talk_about_terf/

In case they delete it, this is the body of the original post:

Hey LGBTQ+ friends,

I'm sure many of you have heard the term "TERF," and assume that it means "someone who hates trans people." That's what I thought until a couple of weeks ago, when I got called a TERF for being homosexual rather than homogenderal. I am a lesbian and the way my sexual orientation functions is toward female people only. Transgender women are valid, but they unfortunately have a mix of male and female sex characteristics, and for me, I am only sexually attracted to female sex characteristics. Growing up, I tried very hard to be bisexual; I didn't want to be gay, I wanted to have a husband and a normal life, and realizing that I physically could not experience attraction to male people was very difficult for me to accept. I finally came to terms with it- but unfortunately now, I am experiencing a lot of homophobia from the unlikeliest of places: within LGBTQ+ itself, specifically, the QT.

Which is why I want to have a conversation with y'all. I am a supporter of trans rights; I have signed up to volunteer in a name change clinic in law school, took a Transgender Studies class in undergrad, have many transgender friends, and overall support trans people having full civil rights. I also support trans people being treated with MUCH more dignity and respect than is standard in today's society. I want to be an ally to trans people, and I do still consider myself an ally to trans people in general- but what I have an issue with is the TRA (trans rights activism) movement, which seems to have gone off the rails. One of the TRA movement's primary tactics is using the term "TERF" to shut down intellectual discourse. Over the past several weeks, it has become clear to me that people who do consider trans women to be women are being called a TERF, at ever-increasing rates. These are just a few of the reasons I've seen female people get called a "TERF" by TRAs:

-Saying there are objective physical differences between trans women and biological women (which does not invalidate anyone's identity btw)

-Being a lesbian (exclusive homosexual attraction)

-Acknowledging male and female socialization as distinct experiences (even if a trans woman's childhood doesn't resemble "boyhood" it is not "girlhood;' it is something else entirely that is totally valid and deserving of respect and compassion)

-Being uncomfortable with penises and penis-talk in lesbian communities

-Being uninterested in dating someone with both male & female sex characteristics

-Talking about biological female experiences and anatomy

-Expressing any hesitancy about self-ID/worries that biological men will take advantage of it

So it's time to have a conversation. When ya'll talk about "punching TERFs" or other violence towards "TERFs," you are talking about people like me- an ally to trans people who wants to remain an ally, but is feeling incredibly alienated by the TRA movement which seeks to erase my sexuality by saying lesbians can be attracted to both sexes. Ls and Gs probably have a deeper innate understanding of why this is so painful for a homosexual person to hear. I am hoping to have a productive conversation with LGBTQ+ people on this subreddit to discuss this issue, and I ask that everyone approach the topic with empathy, care, and respect.

The lesbian who made this post got attacked, belittled, demeaned, and banned within an hour.

I'm sorry lesbians are being treated so badly. If TRA's really believed they were all women they'd have sex with each other.

A few (sort of) do. But they are the transsexuals. I really don't see how their internalised homophobia is eradicated by same-sex, pretendbian, unions though.

Welcome Lost !

You are very welcome indeed op.

I don't know of anyone on MN who actually genuinely wants trans people to have anything less than full human rights, full respect for the lifestyle choices and the freedom to be, wear and aspire to whatever they choose.

Generally all we object to is having our thoughts and speech policed.

Telling Everyone Real Facts:
Men cannot actually become women - of course they should be free to wear dresses, makeup etc but male anatomy is still male anatomy.
Women cannot become men - of course they should be free to present as such but female anatomy remains female.

It is deeply worrying how homophobic the trans narrative has become.

Welcome lostlesbian, or should that be foundlesbian now! I’m also not a mother. Have been here for over a decade now.

The block/ban thing is just massively counterproductive, I think, it leaves them in their own echo chambers. I was blocked on Twitter when chatting to a transwoman who was complaining about TRA tactics giving all trans people a bad name, she was talking about being abused and attacked, and I asked her where that abuse came from and the reply was “you when you call me male” and block. I had genuinely been empathising and trying to offer support and hadn’t gendered her any which way. You can’t win sometimes.

I wasn’t sure if I was supposed to be here as I’m not a mother or British, but I appreciate hearing that I’d be welcome here.

Welcome, LostLesbian. As everyone else said, you don't need to be a parent or British to post here. If you have something to say about sex and gender as they pertain to women - whatever your opinion is - you are welcome here.

Personally, I feel the social pressure being exerted on lesbians to be homegenderal rather than homosexual to be very reminiscent of coercive control in domestic abuse situations. It's wrong and you shouldn't have to put up with it.

Upstart crow
That's hilarious!
If you take this to its logical conclusion, you could have two male-bods in one bedroom having their lesbian relationship, and then, in the next room, two f-bods having gay sex with perhaps a third room, where Stacey m-bod has heterosexual relations with Kevin f-bod. Later they all have dinner and congratulate each other on how they've chucked all the cis-terfs off all the internetchat rooms in the world.

Welcome, LostLesbian. I'm straight but went on my first LGB march many years ago at the age of 14. It was the cotton ceiling back in 2012 that was my first peak trans moment. It enrages me. The whole transbian thing is rape culture.

Hello and welcome!

On the subject of what is transphobic: I was at a presentation at work last week where the male speaker was standing in for a female colleague. He introduced himself as “not X, even at the weekend” chortle chortle not quite with a nudge and a wink, but not far off. That is casual transphobia, and no more acceptable than casual sexism or racism or homophobia or...

It’s a shame that we’ve lost the distinction between transphobia and asking sensible questions.

There are gay men pondering this very question.

Very interesting Terf and serf

I follow gayterfboy. He has a good grasp of the issues.

Hello Lost lesbian!
I'm sorry you were banned for speaking the truth.
I have been a member of a lesbian messageboard for about ten years. It went very quiet lately but I've started posting again and talking about the cotton ceiling, self id and lesbian erasure.

Its been really gratifying to see lesbians talking and mostly agreeing that we have a very big problem. There is some dissent but the point is we are not being silenced. I don't know if its because we don't have male mods there ..
Lostlesbian if you want to know the name of it, pm me. I'm loathe to put the name on here in case it attracts trans activists.

PMed you Blythe! Thanks, it seems like most “lesbian” spaces online are run by transbians so I appreciate it :)

Welcome op! I'm also not a parent. There are lots of people here who aren't. I came here because if some negative press coverage 10 years ago (I was nosy) and stayed when I found it was a forum full of very clever, interesting women.

Babel! I'm shocked at you. Yes, offering tea is sa proper British welcome. But this is mumsnet.

Hello Lost, welcome. Have some .

LaSqrrl, I believe I have hit peak trans already and become gender critical in the past 3-4 weeks. Specifically, what did it for me was a variation of cotton ceiling rhetoric that claimed that it is "ok" for lesbians to be unattracted to penises, but that it is definitely "transphobic" to not be attracted to a post-op trans woman.

As if an inverted penis could in any way resemble a biological vagina to a LESBIAN! Just because it might have some superficial similarities (if the surgery is amazing) and is fuckable, does not mean it is the same thing as a vagina. It does not have the same function, it does not have a clitoris wrapping around the vaginal muscles, it does not have vaginal secretions. Maybe it could fool a man, but it's ludicrous to insist that any lesbian who sees the difference between a "neovagina" (inverted penis) and a biological vagina is actually a transphobe.

The post I made in the LGBTQ subreddit used some language that was meant to appeal to non-gender critical people, but my personal views are that transwomen are not female and never can be, and transwomanhood is an experience that is different from both manhood and womanhood, and is equally valid as a third and different human experience.

Also, thank you everyone for the warm welcome! It feels like a huge relief to meet a community of sane, free-thinking women who are not letting themselves be bullied. I'm honored to join.

Welcome Lost! I'm really glad that you found us here

If TRA's really believed they were all women they'd have sex with each other.

They want to be seen as hot lesbians rather than simply as women.

I posted on the previous page a tweet by a guy who is aware that he has autogynepilia rather than gender dysphoria.

This is why we see some in highly sexualised poses and dress...trying to achieve "hot lesbian".

^ I forgot to add...the ultimate validation for them as a hot lesbian would come from a real lesbian, hence why they get the most hate for sexually rejecting them.

It feels like a huge relief to meet a community of sane, free-thinking women who are not letting themselves be bullied. I'm honored to join.

We still get vilified, brigaded, gaslit and all the rest of it so please stick around and get stuck in!

I don't know if its because we don't have male mods there ..

Very probably. And here too.

The clue to mumsnet is in the name... majority women, run by and moderated by women.

And IMO the fact it's primarily a site for parents is part of what creates a sane environment. You really can't deny biology here, from TTC (a parenting site is ultimately dependent on the existence of two sexes not 'genders' !) through pregnancy, birth, birth injuries, feeding.... and the second factor is that we really do 'think of the children'. Parents have skin in this game, more dear to us than our own. The dangers of over promoting 'transition' in school, versus supporting kids to be confidently gender-nonconforming and/or gay are deeply concerning.

Anyone who can keep within talk guidelines is welcome to contribute anywhere on MN, and everyone who cares about women's rights is very welcome on the feminism board - just if you were wondering why this site is different to so many others, I think this context may help explain it.

Great post. Welcome again.

What interests me is that is page 3 of a feminist chat thread on a trans issue and the usual lurking tran allies haven’t turned up to call us all bigots yet.

Perhaps it’s hard to defend the indefensible.

Babel! I'm shocked at you. Yes, offering tea is sa proper British welcome. But this is mumsnet.

well quite....

I agree with so much of this thread. I was just telling my DH how much I have learnt and found comfort from you lovely people on this great forum, especially FWR . Well put @ErrolTheDragon , I have teen lesbian DD and your post perfectly summarises my "skin in the game" position.

And welcome @LostLesbian380 !