Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Guess how I got suspended from the Labour Party?

811 replies

IAmDavidLewis · 22/05/2018 23:17

Well, one of the weirdest days in my life concluded with me receiving a letter informing me of my immediate suspension from the Labour Party. They believe I may have breached the rules by subverting the intention of All Women Shortlists, Women’s Officers or minimum quotas for women. Unfortunately, this does mean that my political ambitions are on hold for a while. I shall of course be continuing to self-identify as a woman every Wednesday, as that is my gender identity...

I have to say a huge thanks to @namechangeah for all her help, guidance and, more importantly, proof-reading! I wouldn’t have gotten to this point without it. I’d also like to thank everyone for their support today. I hope this has helped a bit.

And the Telegraph called me an “activist”! Achievement unlocked Grin

OP posts:
Thread gallery
12
TerfsUp · 24/05/2018 08:22

Didnt LM say they had schizophrenia?

Yes. LM also claimed to be autistic.

Abolissimo · 24/05/2018 08:32

James Kirkup wrote a great article on his blog at The Observer validating David's approach and explaining how Labour can't have it both ways. A must-read. blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/05/the-catch-22-of-labours-gender-policy/

TERFragetteCity · 24/05/2018 08:36

Yes and LM also said that you couldn't identify as something you weren't.

ChattyLion · 24/05/2018 08:36

I am so incredulous at Labour I feel I need to rehearse this scenario in case I missed something.

Under Labour party rules, (brought in without proper debate with its members, and over which many female Labour members have resigned), self identifying as such is enough to qualify ‘as a man’ or ‘as a woman’ for Labour party purposes.

Self ID means THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE between person A who self identified as a woman to get themselves on the candidate list for woman’s officer (who then gets suspended by the party as a member for his trouble) and person B who stood in the same way and was elected as a local party woman’s officer.

Anyone who supports trans people being recognised as their chosen sex legally, as a formalised way of treating their choices and feelings with dignity, should also be opposed to self identification because it is a completely, inherently flippant concept.

SELF IDENTIFICATION is exactly that. It doesn’t need any distinction or justification of whether you genuinely feel that you are of your chosen gender or chosen sex (or if you just want to live as/present yourself as such) ...

self ID can’t validate whether you have felt that way for 2 seconds, or gone to lengths to live as the opposite sex (or as neither sex/both sexes at the same time) for 2 years or for 20 years.

Self ID requires zero modification of anything- dress, clothes, manner, bodily appearance- that wasn’t there before the magic self ID statement was uttered or written on the application form.

Self ID doesn’t allow anyone to distinguish if you are just taking the piss... or if you just want to get into the women’s toilets so that you can get off on listening to them piss... or worse.
With self ID it’s all on an exactly equal footing.

Anyone can just say the magic words at any time (and can change their mind as many times and as often as they want, over time).

With legal self ID (which is not the law in the UK- but the government might consult on making it so Hmm) the self IDer can be legally RECOGNISED and legally PROTECTED as a man or as a woman just because they say they are.

Anyway back to the Labour Party. Party Rules are party rules and self ID is Labour’s chosen rule. They have said that anyone who identifies as a woman, can be recognised as a woman and thus can stand and hold party office as a woman. Taking us roles reserved for women.
I would assume that this rule also applies to any trans officer roles that the party offers since those would logically also be based on self ID?

Allowing Anyone who IDs themselves as whatever, to ‘be’ that for party purposes, can only mean.... literally anyone.

I don’t understand then, the basis on which Labour thinks that anyone but David Lewis himself, can question what David Lewis self-identifies as?

What is great for public debate in what David Lewis has done, (...noting that DL and the #ManFriday people seem to be the only self-identifying people who do support public debate..Hmm.) is that David Lewis is apparently doing this to highlight this debate.

This means he is maybe a bit less likely to kick off at anyone who questions if DL is really a woman. DL may be a bit less likely to call them ‘transphobic’ for questioning the self identification DL chooses, with serious ramifications for the ‘transphobic’ labelled person’s personal life and career.

DL may be less likely to hound them, make them feel unsafe, try to get them kicked out of the Labour party (Er... instead of David Lewis having been suspended by Labour...).

We are all able to talk, laugh and debate this freely and speculate about DL’s motives ONLY because we think from what he has said in an interview to the Spectator, that DL is trying to make a gender critical point.

BUT we only know that from his interview. Nobody could have known it from his woman’s officer application form which was accepted by Labour. His application confirmed with their self ID rules.

We cant really know that he won’t do that stuff ^ with any certainty, because I can’t look into DL’s mind. under self ID, David Lewis certainly could do all that authoritarian silencing behaviour above if he wanted to... and what could the Labour Party do to stop it? Nothing. Because Self ID is self ID^. And it seems we are being increasingly told to treat it as if it were legally binding.

Labour are choosing to effectively recognise self ID within the party as if it were legal self ID. Self ID and the current process for certification which allows people to change legal gender on their documents (under the Gender Recognition Act) are two different things.

Under Labour’s own rule of self ID, David Lewis has as much right to stand for election as woman’s officer, trans officer, as any other person who wants to stand as a woman’s officer.

But David Lewis is now being prevented from that and has been suspended from the party. Why?

Is there a secret extra or new clause in ‘self ID’ that DL somehow violated that we don’t know about? That has never been applied to other candidates before now? What would that be? Why can’t they tell us?

Self ID is dangerous, tokenistic, virtue signalling numbskullery and David Lewis has only ever gone along with its rules.

All those objecting (hello, Labour Party officials who suspended DL!) should be looking to critique their party’s own misogynistic non- democratic rulemaking and Labours blatant lack of concern for women’s issues and representation.

Labour should be ashamed of themselves for not listening to the very, very many women (and men) who have been pointing this out for months. There is nothing new or against their rules that DL has done.

PS none of this is to say that there is anything wrong or unusual in feeling that gender is bullshit, nor in living as a ‘masculine’ woman or as a ‘feminine’ man or living as someone who just doesn’t buy into gender at all. Gender is a made up way of enforcing a hierarchy between sexes, universally used to keep women down at the bottom because our biology makes us usually relatively smaller, weaker and we are able to bear children.

I just think the law, the state, political party structures etc should not be required to recognise and validate flippant, transient feelings on the same level as they also recognise biological reality.

Sex and biology is real and means we need legal recognition and protections around our sex to deal with the reality of different needs and to protect people from the social inequalities caused by gender stereotyping.

(Dysmorphia is real too and needs proper support from a qualified psychologists and doctors.)

The GRA is imperfect but it aims to weed out those with flippant feelings and to accommodate people who have made a serious commitment to live as the opposite sex. GRA allows them to change their legal sex on their personal legal documentation and involves some objective discussion with doctors etc), and puts in a requirement that they have lived ‘as’ the opposite sex for a couple of years. It was brought in back when same sex marriage wasn’t allowed, and civil partnership had not been brought in for same sex couples.

I just don’t get what Labour are complaining that David Lewis has done wrong?

NotARegularPenguin · 24/05/2018 08:39

My students union said I wasn't welcome at a women in leadership event which in the blurb said was for self identifying women and trans women. I said I didn't self identify as a woman but was a woman and could I come and was basically told to go away.

ChattyLion · 24/05/2018 08:39

Bloody hell. Apologies for the rant but I just feel i’ve wandered into some weird dystopia and just can’t fathom it..

Ereshkigal · 24/05/2018 08:42

Good post Chatty. They really are ridiculous.

speakingwoman · 24/05/2018 08:49

Penguin, that's shocking.

What did you say back? Or did you run out of time to devote to these halfwits at that point?

"My students union said I wasn't welcome at a women in leadership event which in the blurb said was for self identifying women and trans women. I said I didn't self identify as a woman but was a woman and could I come and was basically told to go away."

ChattyLion · 24/05/2018 08:50

Eresh it just defies comprehension.
One other thing about GRA- it at least tries to recognise this as a pretty fucking important step that is reserved for adults, people aged over 18. Kids and teenagers can’t get it and that to me is a GOOD thing at an age range where its completely normal, healthy and expected to have identity questions and be exploring.

speakingwoman · 24/05/2018 09:05

Question:

presumably one can be in favour of the proposed self-ID regime which involves making a statutory declaration but also in favour of David's action which has served to highlight Labour's utter lack of, and indeed disapproval of, safeguarding?

Labour is ahead, not only of the current law, but even of the proposed law, I think....

Supermatch? others?

NotARegularPenguin · 24/05/2018 09:05

I emailed them a few times but they never replied.

Bowlofbabelfish · 24/05/2018 09:11

but I just feel i’ve wandered into some weird dystopia and just can’t fathom it..

Yes it’s quite the rabbit hole isn’t it? Which is why it’s trying to sneak in under the radar and why we all need to sit down and have a good public discussion on it.

And why some groups get so very angry with MN when we do discuss it.

YY to point about under 18s - thatvreallybis vital.

blackteasplease · 24/05/2018 09:18

Labour have shot themselves in the foot here. The whole point is they don't distinguish between the intentions or longevity of anyone id ing as a woman.

Hopefully this will peak some more people. Depressingly the fact man is doing it will get more publicity thsn a woman making a point but not to take away from his point or actions.

FermatsTheorem · 24/05/2018 09:18

Chatty your long post has just given me a lightbulb moment. Even if you think "woman" is a socially constructed category rather than a biological one, you should still not be in favour of self ID. Because there are no other meaningful socially-constructed categories with legal and real-world consequences which rely entirely on an individual's say-so; all of them are underpinned by a social consensus - which is why they're social constructs, not individual or identarian constructs.

Money is a social construct. But we don't allow individuals to write "I promise to pay the bearer on demand of the sum of £10" in biro on a blank piece of paper and take it into a shop. We have agreed legal rules about what counts as money and what doesn't. Nationality is a social construct - but you're not going to get far applying for a passport with a hand-written note saying "I identify as British" rather than your actual birth certificate.

There has to be gate-keeping for social constructs - there has to be some socially agreed way of telling the genuine claims from the piss-taking ones - otherwise social constructs do not work.

speakingwoman · 24/05/2018 09:21

penguin, I think that, for me, it's well worth developing scripts of things you can say that won't backfire, clearly are not nasty, etc,etc. I expect you've done the same.

good luck with it.

womanformallyknownaswoman · 24/05/2018 09:21

To me it's like club membership - women are an exisiting club who membership is biologically based. If someone wants to apply to become a member of that club who isn't biologically a woman, they need to apply for membership. Then the existing members can consider whether it is appropriate to accept new categories of membership. The existing members can take as long as they want to consider the complex questions and are under no obligation to widen the exisiting category of membership. Until that point, any prospective members have to wait and also must be prepared for a "No".

However what's happened is that many men have come along and burgled the club, grabbed membership certificates and are acting like they have been accepted already.

tl;dr No one asked the existing women club membership what they thought about new categories of membership. Due process has not been observed in any way. Policy has been changed without consultation that adversely affects half of the population, namely women. Many men are acting like women don't exist and /or that they can decide on their behalf - they can't - they are not women.

Why can't women get to decide what's right for them?

Ereshkigal · 24/05/2018 09:23

There’s no way to argue out of this one - David has shown the absurdity of the situation beautifully.

Yep.

ChattyLion · 24/05/2018 09:26

Penguin

Guess how I got suspended from the Labour Party?
R0wantrees · 24/05/2018 09:32

womanformallyknownaswoman

from Private Eye

Guess how I got suspended from the Labour Party?
ChattyLion · 24/05/2018 09:37

I agree with what everybody has said about the utter shower that is self ID. It’s such a fucking disengenuous pat on the head, even for those it IS supposed to benefit.

Self ID comes from a place of smugly powerful people going along humouring what they see as ‘other’ people, patting them on the head and pretending to agree with them. ‘Of course you are if you say you are!’ (Except... ‘I retain my right to sex-based dating and wouldn’t touch you with his’ Hmm- so there is no genuine acceptance.)

That patronising type of virtue signalling is now uncritically being proposed as law as part of a fucked up unthinking competition to be the most inclusive as if that is in itself a virtue or and end goal.. without any thought of what actually being inclusive would look like. Egged on by a subset of people who seem to have pretty dark motivations in mind if you are a woman, child or trans person.

merrymouse · 24/05/2018 09:53

Is there a secret extra or new clause in ‘self ID’ that DL somehow violated that we don’t know about? That has never been applied to other candidates before now? What would that be? Why can’t they tell us?

Exactly. Who gets to decide who is a real trans person/woman if there are no objective criteria?

To quote a labour icon:

“What power have you got? Where did you get it from? In whose interests do you exercise it? To whom are you accountable? And how can we get rid of you?“

Sarahconnor1 · 24/05/2018 10:01

There appears to be a sincerity test now, maybe they will have committees, lie detectors, interrogation. Who knows.

Maybe sandydrawsbadly could sketch up some ideas Grin

ConfessionsOfTeenageDramaQueen · 24/05/2018 10:02

@IAmDavidLewis - you're a (s)hero.

I am begging you to take this further and appeal. Please don't stop now.

And anyone else - if you have friends who care enough to do the same as David, please get them to do this too!

hackmum · 24/05/2018 10:03

Fermats: "Money is a social construct. But we don't allow individuals to write "I promise to pay the bearer on demand of the sum of £10" in biro on a blank piece of paper and take it into a shop. We have agreed legal rules about what counts as money and what doesn't. Nationality is a social construct - but you're not going to get far applying for a passport with a hand-written note saying 'I identify as British' rather than your actual birth certificate."

This is an incredibly important point. The nationality analogy had occurred to me before. You can't, in a well-ordered society, simply allow people to go around saying, "I identify as XYZ" and take their word for it. I identify as dyslexic, so you must allow me extra time in exams? I identify as disabled, so I'm entitled to park in the disabled parking space? I identify as Irish, so you must give me an Irish passport? All these things have rules attached to them that we have agreed on as a society.

Wanderabout · 24/05/2018 10:18

My students union said I wasn't welcome at a women in leadership event which in the blurb said was for self identifying women and trans women. I said I didn't self identify as a woman but was a woman and could I come and was basically told to go away.

Lol. Except not lol.